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Old 11-06-2007, 09:16 PM
daybrown daybrown is offline
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Default Sustainable population

The problem is not population growth, but... sorry if I sound like a Nazi, who is reproducing. The power elites are promoting the population growth of the ignorant and easily manipulated to have the votes at the polls to prevent the majority of rational voters from having the majority of the votes to provide the mandate needed to look into, and control, the abuses of the power elites.

This is why environmentalism is not getting anywhere. Its why Bush is in the Whitehouse. And now they are trying to add millions more of illegals to the franchise. I've worked in the fields with Mexicans, and they are sociable hardworkers. But they are not well educated, and dont even speak the language, so demagogues funded by the power elites will be able to speak to them in spanish, pandering to their ethnicity and religion, that those of you who only speak English, dont even know it is going on.

Yes, they will vote "Democratic". But that party now represents the interest of rich lawyers, not the middle class much less the working class. (bread & circuses)=(beer & baseball). Read Machivalli; power elites have always done this. History shows the elites corrupt republics to further enrich themselves. It shows how this destablizes the economy and leads to financial panic, anarchy, and/or revolution. It also shows that the power elites never read history, which is why they are still repeating it.

There has never been an empire as rich and powerful as this, so its a moot point how long the over exploitation which results in "failed states" can go on before it leads to a critical shortage of some essential resource. Which has often caused financial panic and civil disorder. But in the meantime, its clear that the elite control of the mass media will mean that nothing we, who are paying attention, can do will result in a sufficient political mandate to reduce exploitation and environmental damage. If you read Jared Diamond's "Collapse", but then apply the insights from studies on group think, you have a good idea of what is coming.

As the elite's mismanagement of the resource base creates shortages, the cost of that management actually *INCREASES*. The power elites become even more exploitive to increase their share of the pie so as to reassure themselves that "progress" is still going on. Given that the global economic pie is so large, I cant say when this will destabilize the system. Altho we can expect more failed states, with more violence and genocide. We see the starvation in places like Darfor, but dont consider how the food they would otherwise import, is left in the global market to be shared out by the remaining global population.

Because of hurricanes hitting China, and drought in Australia, the global grain supply is down to less than 60 days, and is entirely reliant on the northern hemisphere, primarily the North American crops coming in. If the destabilization of the weather from global warming results in crop failure, the proverbial schitt will hit the fan. The average couch spud sees the rise in gas at the pump, oblivious to the rise in petroleum products to agribusiness, or how that will result in some land taken out of production because the profit potential has declined. The fact that this sort of thing tends to lead to global famine is not their problem.

http://dc-pc.org/fertilty/fertilty.html shows my position on population growth has been out there for quite some time... to deafening silence. Liberals do not like to think about it. But as I've been saying, ever since the birth control pill, smart women have used it thinking they could teach the craft to the airheads. Unfortunately, they were wrong about that. So, at the same time that the supply of competent nurses, teachers, social workers, & therapists have been declining, the supply of the client classes has been rising, and now case loads are headed thru the roof.

Head Start and all the other social programs have not worked nearly as well as hoped, and now with the human genome data and other scientific analysis, we can see that intelligence, ie the talent to succeed in nursing school, is handed down on the mtDNA. I have also noted, that if what you want are stupid kids, raise them on soulfood. It may have been nutritious at one time, but when concocted from the ingredients agribusiness provides, no longer as the trace elements and micro nutrients to maximize mental development. And now, the boomer social safety net women are nearing retirement with no supply of nearly enuf competent young women to replace them. Without their case work, we can expect drug, alcohol, and domestic abuse to rise dramatically. We can gang warfare to also rise, and this could, if ascerbated with economic decline, lead to all out genocidal warfare.

Psychologically, as Diamond notes, a homogeneous population can pull together at times of crisis. But if there are minorities, then what happens is that demagogues arise scapegoating, and the violence slides twards civil war & genocide. The power elites have tried to promote "diversity" knowing that it creates factions that they can play off one against the other to prevent a mandate for significant policy from forming.

But we are where we are, and we do not have the power to get the attention of the people who could benefit. They are mindlessly watching TV, not reading your postings. But at the polls, their vote counts just as much as yours does, and since they are in such vast numbers, we end up with jackasses like Bush in power. By 2008, it will prolly be too late for any competent leadership taking over to do anything to stabilize the sitation and move twards a sustainable system.

The smart money is already getting out of town. I see their starter castles and mcMansions going up all over my neck of Ozark woods. Former military and civil service men and women are investing in hobby farms trying to find a market niche in agriculture, the last hope for economic survival if their pension funds dry up. Smart young women already realize that the social security system will not be there for them. So, what will be? The client class women dont even have to think about it. They give birth to as many kids as possible, with the instinctive expectation that some of them will be competent enough to take care of them later on in life.

So.. what do you think smart young women should do?
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Old 16-06-2007, 01:35 AM
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Cerberus Cerberus is offline
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Wow! What should smart young women do indeed!

What should smart young men do for that matter? It takes two to tango, after all. In Australia, our very clever government is PAYING people to have babies... can you believe that? Guess which people are having babies? $5000 is a lot of money for a career welfare person.

I don't know the answer to this, but I suspect education is key. But then again, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
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Old 17-06-2007, 02:41 AM
matthewtrigg matthewtrigg is offline
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Default Time for change

I think the wider cause is the perception that for things to improve they must increase in number. Be that in terms of wealth, possessions or population.

It is the eternal argument of quantity versus quality.

This focus has been beneficial to the growth of human society in the past, but i believe we have long since past the point of its usefulness. In fact i think it is now a dangerous path to continue along.

That is not to say that people should be forced not to reproduce, rather that the focus of out vast and varied societies should shift away from it being the purpose of our lives.
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Old 18-06-2007, 06:05 PM
Corey Corey is offline
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Originally Posted by matthewtrigg View Post
I think the wider cause is the perception that for things to improve they must increase in number. Be that in terms of wealth, possessions or population.

It is the eternal argument of quantity versus quality.

This focus has been beneficial to the growth of human society in the past, but i believe we have long since past the point of its usefulness. In fact i think it is now a dangerous path to continue along.

That is not to say that people should be forced not to reproduce, rather that the focus of out vast and varied societies should shift away from it being the purpose of our lives.
Well as far as education is concerned I put the blame squarely on the shoulders of big business and leadership. In their infinite wisdom, they decided that the short term pursuit of profit outwayed any and all long term goals of environmentally sustainable practices. They have left the mess for the common folks around the world to fix. Oh, forgot to add that big business and leadership don't want it fixed it challenges their greed , power, and profit.
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Old 19-06-2007, 06:17 AM
daybrown daybrown is offline
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Default Reproduction.

But the power elite only gets away with it cause the average person is so stupid and lazy. And adding more of the least mentally equipped to cope with the complexities of the modern world only makes it easier for demagogues to succeed at the polls.

I saw a panel of smart women, nurses, discuss the shortage of competent help to replace them when they retire, and one commented that if they wanted smart girls to replace them, they'll have to give birth to the girls themselves. A deafening silence, not common on TV followed.

But we have the human genome data, and are beginning to understand how genetically determined hormone levels affect behavior. Phrenology was wrong, but when you look inside the skull, its the ratio of white matter to gray matter that correlates well with academic and intellectual job performance. What's the white matter for? Its a soupy buffer to cushion blows to the skull so that the warrior survives. Some gene pools have more warriors. "Educating" them has not been very successful. They rely on instinct more.

I could go on, but the point is that if smart women are going to have anyone look after them later on in life, they'd do well not to plan on social security, but work out some more locally based social safety net, which would be even more attentive to their needs if it had some of their own grown children supporting it.

In like manner, if we are to do the global environment any good, then we need more competent people with an innate interest in doing so. The nuclear family model wont do. Women need greater levels of household cooperation to share childcare with other women so that they can devote more of their time to these social and environmental things they care about.

Psychologically, the nuclear family model worked back before birth control when the siblings provided a peer group, preparing the kids for both competition and cooperation in the adult world. When there are only 1-2 kids in the house, the ratio of spoiled brats rises dramatically. Likewise, out of any group of kids, there are likely to be some out on the ends of the bell curve which really strain the power of a single mom to deal with it. The communal household is like family insurance, that advice and help will be there if a kid, at one time or another, is really challenging. You need the therapist in the *house* not in an office downtown.

Hominids evolved in tribes, not nuclear families.
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Old 19-06-2007, 03:32 PM
Corey Corey is offline
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We need to stop being so afraid to die. when we get older and can no longer contribute to society its time to do what the Native Indians did they would usually get up in the night taking only a buffalo skin and going into the worldliness to die. to lessen the burden of the tribe. A leach is an apt description of someone who no longer contributes to society or the community and just drains the resources of said community. If I wasn't Smart enough to engage other people into trying to effect change I would probably opt for self neutronization so as not to drain limited resources. We need to stop thinking in terms of "unlimited resources" for its a lie. There is only so much to go around. It is a fact we need to learn to cope with. Adapt be personally responsible and do what is necessary for the survival of our ecosystem and the human race..
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Old 26-06-2007, 06:53 AM
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Its interesting to note that the average IQ level in the Western World has gone up since the second world war when compared to before the war. To keep the average at 100 they have to re-centre it regularly.

As to population, I think this is one of those things that has to form part of a whole package of solutions. You can’t just fix population and ignore the rest.

We “need” more people to run our ever expanding economies. Education can go so far to helping us to achieve a sustainable population but it wont make any difference if we keep growing our economies.
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Old 26-06-2007, 03:45 PM
Corey Corey is offline
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Maybe it is just the young people I am around but it seems many of the youth are just plain clueless. Either that or they are just to satisfied having everything handed to them that they are not willing to apply themselves.

I am not disagreeing with your IQ statement just that it seems to be different through observation of those around me.

Either that or the IQ test did not accurately asses my IQ which was smack dab in the middle. when you look at the individual components I rank near Einstein in one or two category but bottom out in others. This effect of polar oposites gave me the average score.
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Last edited by Corey; 26-06-2007 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 27-06-2007, 06:10 AM
isenhand isenhand is offline
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Originally Posted by Corey View Post
Maybe it is just the young people I am around but it seems many of the youth are just plain clueless. Either that or they are just to satisfied having everything handed to them that they are not willing to apply themselves.
That’s a common complaint. I heard a nice quote once by a Greek gent. I think it was Aristotle but could have been one of the others. Basically he was making the same observation. The behaviour pattern has more to do with maturity than intelligence. People don’t really reach full mental maturity until they reach the age of 25.

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Either that or the IQ test did not accurately asses my IQ which was smack dab in the middle. when you look at the individual components I rank near Einstein in one or two category but bottom out in others. This effect of polar oposites gave me the average score.
Sounds like you’re dyslexic.
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Old 27-06-2007, 04:08 PM
Corey Corey is offline
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yes I am irony is Einstein had a similar problem as well. People refer him as being one of the most brilliant after the fact.

hhmmm then I must have matured early....Environment around me forced it on me.
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