Sustainable population

[isenhand]

Originally Posted by Corey

yes I am irony is Einstein had a similar problem as well. People refer him as being one of the most brilliant after the fact.

Often the worse the dyslexia the more intelligent the person.

[daybrown]

"IQ" needs some clarification. Jared Diamond, in his latest "Collapse" reports that he can follow a New Guinea Highlander into the forest, and listen the man draw on an encyclopedic database to expound for hours on the minutiae of the flora & fauna. But the same guy cant handle simple algebra.

The IQ test would say he's a dolt. Its really a matter of adaptation to the environment, be it the jungle or a city. Urban life and modern media have moved a long ways away from the rural agrarian village I descended from over the course of the last 10,000 years.

I was born on a farm, have lived in cities, but have lived most of the last 30 years in the Ozarks, in large part because it resembles so much the natural environment my genetic endowment expects. If I were good at making a lotta money, I prolly would've stayed in the city. But as it was, I was best at making others with more assets, even richer. I didnt see the sense in promoting that.

If you are going to be low income anyway, rural life is much more rewarding. Then too, besides the question of IQ, there is the issue of neurotic denial. The neurotic cant tolerate ambiguity, and so when confronted with a new situation, decides quickly. Where the IQ comes in, is in the ingenius excuses the neurotic comes up with to explain why zie thinks as zie does. "Education" has virtually no effect.

[Johnny Electriglide]

Originally Posted by isenhand

Its interesting to note that the average IQ level in the Western World has gone up since the second world war when compared to before the war. To keep the average at 100 they have to re-centre it regularly.

As to population, I think this is one of those things that has to form part of a whole package of solutions. You can’t just fix population and ignore the rest.

We “need” more people to run our ever expanding economies. Education can go so far to helping us to achieve a sustainable population but it wont make any difference if we keep growing our economies.

The IQ went up temporarily from good nutrition, but in the USA has dropped down to an average of 94 since the onslaught of 3rd world 80 IQ average foreigners came in, legally or illegally. Sure, IQ itself is rather variable and amorphous, but it ties directly to educational level, income (loosely), and overbreeding.
The steady state economy of Herman Daly is just not being done, for several reasons. LBJ and Ted Kennedy put Social Security Individual Accounts into the General Fund, causing a growth only economy necessary for SS. Greed dictates more and more, while now going to a steady state economy would be painful to those in power especially, and does require being sustainable in population and all activities.
Basically, the "expanding economies" are growth caused by overpopulation and feeding on more overpopulation---overpopulation in essence feeding on itself with more and more demands with less and less resources left. The technology to gobble up the resources is better and better until a point is reached where it is too expensive to get the last bits, or the resource is gone or destroyed as in our soil and water---and benevolent climate.
The point has been passed where there is a solution, gradual and relatively easy. The laws of bio-ecology, population dynamics and momentum take over. Long term pollution to absorption, depletions to regeneration and recharges, are the future, and here with us now.<rockon>

[Corey]

Johnny I think we get the Idea that the future is dire. The key is, "hope," to keep us going or we might as well mass suicide. I think most of us that come to this particular forum have accepted that its dire or will become dire if change is not sought. depending if you look at it from optimism or pessimism.

Freaking us all out that we are going to die we are going to die is not helping. we are here to make changes we want solutions that work, solutions that can be sought without the leadership who choose to drag there feet, without the big companies and opportunists Taking advantage of the well meaning individual.

Yes we are over populated so what is a workable solution that does not involve genocide or fighting over what resources are left?

If the individual does not or will not change enough on there own how do we pressure our governments to put regulations and rules in place that will out law the anti- social behavior and selfishness by putting caps on the amount we consume?

No offence but every time I read something of yours I have a massive panic attack. I don't need it I am doom and gloom enough without rubbing it in.

How about sharing the links to the information which you derived your conclusions and such so as to let us draw our own conclusions and such.

offer step by step solutions to different aspects of the things we need to fix maybe we could possibly halt or reverse some of the dammage. after all the climate change lags behind the co2 output. so why not work on ways to reduce our pollution as much as possible starting with our selves and finding ways to share with others the success of those steps.

If you want to convince people who need to change there views suggest you head over to the Av forum there are plenty of non believers or sceptics there who still need convincing..

[Johnny Electriglide]

Corey, you don't have to get a panic attack for something that is 40 years in the future. Panic is unreasoning fear, and can be overcome with education and developing skills in life or death situations. Take flight lessons and handgun carry permit lessons. If you can, get an instrument pilot rating. Join the Army or something to get tough. Anything but turn into a weakling. In Truth there is strength. This is only less than one trillionth of our life if we are good. Good is not being over-tolerant or over-compassionate, but finding truth and spreading it, whether it is specific math or data, or general ecology or atmospheric or ocean science. Knowledge is truth, and education gives strength, too. All we as individuals can do is spread knowledge. We can not change the world on our own, and have to accept those things we can not change, yet have the honor of trying. Fight the good fight, on the side of truth, until the end in this world.<rockon>

[Corey]

Panic Attacks the way you describe johnny is not necessarily everybody, It depends on how the panic is triggered and some are more sensitive, like in my case where there are medical factors of genetics and past experiences.

If its a life and death situation and its imminent I actually become calmer and my mind goes into a cold hard calculating mode. this allows me to act, where others just gasp and act dumb founded.

There are other factors that affect me besides the climate such as people good will to donate excess food to the food shelf.

My disability check is based on current taxes collected thus if we hit a severe recession where many or most lose out on work I will not receive it. I am not exactly desirable work material.

Although If they reinstated the "CCC" (Civilian Conservation Corp.) I might consider joining.

[daybrown]

I hardly know where to go with this, but to begin with, a "sustainable population" hasta be a smart one. And I saw another report on TV recently about a move in that direction. The implications are going to make a lotta people squirm.

Eugenics is already underway by successful career women who realize that they are no longer young and sexy enough to attract a man who meets their expectations. They are therefore going to fertility clinics and scanning thru a database of thousands of Y chromosome lines looking for the best match. Half of these women are dykes, or at least living with other women. My own experience with smart dykes is that they are not averse to bed time with a man from time to time, just dont expect it will meet their other social and emotional needs.

The TV reports I've seen didnt say so, but all of the women shown were white. And their preferance is overwhelmingly, perhaps 100% for Y chromosome lines from Scandanavia and Northern Europe. Whatever the racist implications are, these men have traveled the seas for over 1000 years, and have better immune responses to more diseases than any other Y chromosome lines. The colonial era wiped out a lot of them with tropical diseases, so only the most robust immune systems returned home after a posting.

But then, the TV showed women saying that they wanted children with an altruistic streak. While they didnt have access to the identity of donors, they were able to scan thru brief bios and pull up those who, in college years, had been involved in environmental and sustainable economic & social development. I saw a few interviews with some of the older kids, now in high school, and their comments support that instinct to want to better the world rather than just better themselves.

The fertility clinics would not divulge the identity of donors, but they would provide contact with women who'd used a given sperm line so that women considering conception would have a better idea of what challenges and opportunities mite result. This is creating a kind of extended family of half siblings, and now women of these kids are having family reunions.

But now, lets play this social evolution out a little further. As these kids mature, these half clans will be there to provide leads on career and educational opportunities. Some of these women are already small business owners, and will do the same with these siblings as patriarchic business has done for millennia. And no doubt, with this kind of talent and creativity... and ability to work with and understand others, these entrepeneurial operations will be very competitive in the global market.

And who owns the businesses? The mothers and grandmothers. Well, there is a living example of this among the Mosou of Western China, where the grandmothers own all the real estate and businesses, and have for centuries.

We already see corporate healthcare and childcare. This kind of business will no doubt at fertility clinic services, and improve their competitiveness even more. These kids will be healthier than most, not debilitated by childhood diseases, do well in school, and need far less in the way of family leave. Which means that the productivity level of the moms will be higher than for any other group of moms. Which means more profits, attracting more investment, and with grandmothers rather than male CEOs, have a much lower cost of management.

Perrhaps to facilitate childcare, but in any case, the Mosou live communally. The grandmothers are always on hand to watch the kids while the moms work. The energy consumption per capita is dramatically lower than the nuclear family household. I'm sure that modern female corporate management will see the advantages, both in terms of the cost of the payroll and in terms of the social benefits of raising kids among peers rather than the nuclear family house with only 1-2 kids. In that case, the lack of competition produces lotsa brats.

It also moves the idea of "home office" up an order of magnitude in efficiency, to have someone on hand, 24/7 to answer the calls from clients & suppliers. Because the Global Economy operates in all time zones, the 9-5 office hours are not competitive.

The Mosou seem to have some men live there just because they have good mentoring skills. But when a woman wants to carry on, there's nothing to prevent her from enjoying the company of whatever stud muffins seem suitable. This is moving the corporate idea of specialization into the daily home environment. All the Mosou have lacked are fertility clinic sperm lines to choose from. The notorious wantonness of the young Mosou women however, has lotsa lines delivered personally to their door for evaluation.

Without being economically dependent on each other, men & women tend to rely on the same kind of traits they find in friends, common interest, sociability, & attentiveness. This is not a top down utopian government plan. There is no coercion here. People have always met at work, and then began families, so there is that kind of Platonic eugenic process that produces lawyers from lawyers, musicians from musicians, teachers from teachers, and so on. Or away from work, welfare queens from welfare queens, and of course, fundies from fundies. Who are out breeding everyone else. Deliberately to acquire the democratic majority at the polls to take over the system. Even if the faithful dont understand that, the demagogues leading them do.

These inherited personality profiles are far more powerful in creating lifestyle choices than liberal education professionals have been willing to admit. I cant say whether the women in the corporate eugenic system are aware of the risk the resulting demagoguery presents to the future of humanity and the health of the environment, but clearly, the kind of kinship it produces will be an important factor in being able to adapt to whatever the changes are.

It is no longer a question of using rational discourse to move the masses to support responsible leadership. And even if new leadership is more rational than Bush, that is not saying much, nor whether there will be enough resources left to deal with it. At this point, all we can do is think locally, what networks we can create to reduce our own dependence on foreign oil or other imports, and increase our ability to produce what we need, for ourselves and the children we care about, in our own area.

Given the manipulation of the electorate by mass media and the corruption of the electoral process, the only vote you can count on is that you do with your feet. Or a U-haul. Having a national network of Solari circles will help to outline the opportunities and challenges of different areas.

[Corey]

This is going to make it to easy to over populate. It is one of the factors why we have a low population in the USA as is. We don't like any potentials near us thus no breeding. So ouch and My guess it is for personal greed that they do this artificial insemination, for they want someone to take care of them when they are old instead of accepting that when you can no longer contribute the responsible thing to do is self neutralization.

There is another consideration. How will these children be taught, will they develop a sense of superiority over the rest of us when there parents tell them that they selected the best of the best so to speak. I can see this as a tame version of what Hitler was trying to achieve the perfect human race.

We really need to be careful with this.

I think I might have seen the same program or at least part of it.

[Johnny Electriglide]

Originally Posted by Corey

we have a low population in the USA as is.

The USA has been overpopulated for 100 years, more or less, depending on what standard of living you use. Right now at our present standard of living and counting the 33 million illegals, we are at over 8 times sustainable. If we all reduced to a Euro Living Standard, we are still 4 times sustainable, and at a very low standard of living sustainable population over double. Saying the USA has a low population is NOT correct. I expect better from you, Corey. "Elephants in the Volkswagen" was written 15 years ago, and everything since then has just been verification of what was known, and the newer fact that sustainable population, or sustainability, is accelerating downward with depletion and pollution of very long term to recharge/regeneration/absorption resources.
The changes necessary for sustainability are becoming greater from both ends--increasing population, pollution, and resource use; and reducing sustainability from the pollution and depletion. The results are a general lowering of living standard as everything increases in costs in comparison to income. The end result is a very poor living standard for all but the very rich, followed by ecological/social collapse as groundwater is the first to run out.

[founder]

Originally Posted by Johnny Electriglide

The USA has been overpopulated for 100 years, more or less, depending on what standard of living you use. Right now at our present standard of living and counting the 33 million illegals, we are at over 8 times sustainable. If we all reduced to a Euro Living Standard, we are still 4 times sustainable, and at a very low standard of living sustainable population over double. Saying the USA has a low population is NOT correct.

Where is the living standard in the US better than in Europe?

That's a complete nonsens. We have the same living standard in Europe,
only US people are wasting for the same standard twice the energy.

And what is for You a very low living standard?

Climbing on trees and eating bananas?

The USA is has a very low population density.

There is no reason why not a much better standard of living should be not sustainable.

Or would You call primitive air condition systems with cold air flows and the noise of the fan a living standard?

NO! That's primitive plunder

Cheap electric power for unprofessional solutions

So it would be better to promote a better living standard, instead of frightening with a bad future.