Hi all,
I am starting this topic knowing full well that it will be controversial to some, as it taps into some of our deepest habits and belief systems. However, I do feel that the topic is ripe for discussion, especially in environmental circles.
To kick it off, I am going to post some links to some articles for those who would like to participate in this discussion to read through or use as a reference. The articles are well referenced with reliable sources from what I can gather.
EatEco - Eating Ecologically Sustainable Diets
9 October: the day humanity starts eating the planet
http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/library/key_pub/longshad/A0701E00.pdf
There are many issues to be considered here. There is the resource cost of producing food, the resource costs of processing that food, transport costs, storage costs, the expanding population, rising health issues that seem to be highly correlated with changing dietary habits (see "The China Study" and many recent articles on cancer risks) and there is also the question of good old fashioned ethics.
It's a big global topic, for an ever growing population on this earth, and the implications seem to be huge in even making small changes, for better or worse.
Here we go then......:discussion:
Humans started "eating the planet" when max sustainable at the average standard of living was reached around 1900. Since then 2/3 of the soil and groundwater is gone, and soil, air and water polluted to way past absorption levels to the point of global warming. Depletion of our ocean stocks and even the reduction in total CO2 absorption ability with deforestation.
Humans evolved with a widely varied diet in most areas, of 10% average animal meat. Trying to change humans to vegans would give a few more years, but overpopulation has become an unstoppable nightmare Juggernaut of epic, unprecedented proportions. The last time a type of organism did total change to the biosphere were the cyanobacteria that gave us the oxygen atmosphere between 3 and 4 billion years ago.
The thing that desperate people are prone to do is cannibalism, and I'm ready!!!:partytime:
In all your decisions and actions, think first of the consequences 7 generations from now. Ute Rule of Life
Hi Cerberus,
I think you might be preaching to the converted here!
Reading all the threads on this forum there are two constantly recurring themes, population increase and consumerism.
Obviously there is no way to change peoples eating habits overnight, and this is a massive global issue, maybe here in the UK we should start with VAT on food? The more links in the chain the more VAT, if high quality ethically farmed unprocessed food cost the same or less than over processed junk I suspect things would change quite quickly.
Problem is how do you get that round business? Governments should love the idea of more cash coming in.
(I'm being naive here aren't I?)
I was about to spend thousands on solar and been reading up on hybrid cars.
After reading up on those links and others such as http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~gidon/papers/nutri/nutriEI.pdf
I now will be buying a vegie cook book for $19.95 and doing more than spending those thousands would of. (looks like my grocery bill will be lower too, seems it won't cost me like big boys want us to believe). Too easy.
Be the change you want to see.
My wife's a veggie, I'm not, my five year eats meat, my two year old doesn't. As a family we take the view that we are much happier eating food where we know where it's come from. We never eat junk food or soft drinks. Neither my wife nor I are particularly evangelical when it comes to organic/veggie, what we do insist on is knowing that those who provide our food do so sustainably. We also cook every meal from scratch using fresh or frozen ingredients, some people might find it a chore, but the kids love it (you wouldn't believe the mess a two and five can make). Got a great recipe for quick tortillas (children optional).
As I am of the Extreme Poverty. I am having more and more difficulty with eating ethically and organic. Prices are going up and as it goes up I will be forced to go back to the unsustainable unhealthy mono-crop and overly processed foods. I do not have access to farm able soil so garden is out of question.
The food shelves around here for the poor is getting slimmer and slimmer and a lot of the food is unhealthy type or junk foods or mono foods(eating peas day in and out). its either eat it or starve so to speak. Regardless that eating it destroys our health making us even more of a burden on society because we have bad food related illness which then causes us to seek medical Attention which tax payers pay for.
Its real difficult for me to accept that I live in a country of excess, Yet I will be among the first to die when it hits the fan such as those in Africa and Asia and elsewhere. What an irony in that huh? Not looking for sympathy or anything just trying to put a very human picture on it is all. A real one at that.
For the time being though I forgo on any luxury items and save all my money for food, rent, and hard line phone for emergency.
the bulk of my food consist of produce from farmers market (organic) a loaf of home baked bread form there as well. one pound of meat grass fed no chemicals or hormones. try to limit foods from grocery store since it is too difficult to find any local provided foods there. Also if I can find anything at food shelf only I have to be more relaxed in regards to processed and non-organic. At least the food there is free and if not eaten is burned or trashed so its no waste vs if I not use it at all.
Got to go for now time for an apointment for my anxiety/panic
chow till later
We can talk till we are blue in the face, The real impact of change is when we take action based on information we have talked about. So lets do more action to create change. :)
Bowman, you just hit on a point that often perplexes me..
The amazing mystery of how over-processed foods can cost so much less that fresh, local produce.... it's just bizarre.. more packaging, more handling, more weird ingredients, more processing, more storage... and yet, cheaper in many cases than just buying simple, old-fashioned, in-season ingredients and cooking from "scratch" aka "real food".
I think extra tax for every link in the chain is a great idea. Over here in Australia, fresh food is GST free, but it doesn't seem to motivate people to eat more healthy fresh food.
I think somehow, junkfood just has to become really uncool, and the art of cooking needs to be recaptured and nurtured in society. So glad to hear you all love cooking! I am also a bit of a cook, and love to fiddle with new flavours with seasonal veggies, did a gorgeous beet dish last night, simmered in freshly squeezed orange juice, a dash of maple syrup, some zest and sea salt... it was awesome! I have a wonderful burrito recipe already, but would love to try yours out if you want to post it. :)
Over here, there is a move by parents to try and have junkfood advertising banned... but of course, the Gov won't hear of it... they say it won't make any difference... kind of weird don't you think? If it made no difference to sales, they wouldn't advertise in the first place... this is the kind of political codswallop that delays progress.
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams
I think a lot of people don't have a clue how to cook unless they've a recipe book in front of them, why don't parents just learn how to cook rather than trying to ban advertising? I think this is the kind of point where personal responsibility comes in, if you're chef get down to the school and give the kids cooking lessons/exhibitions. If you're a farmer get the kids down to the farm, hook up with a chef and throw a barbecue.
I'll type up the flat bread recipe, it's from Casa Moro by Sam and Sam Clark, highly recommended.
Bowman:
Part of the reason parents forgot how to cook is how long it took to actually cook a complete meal up to 1 hour average. In a busy lifestyle set by big business there isn't time for this.
I been making my own hot cereal using a base of a 7 grain Bulk ground cereal, oatmeal, 2 or 3 types of raisins, coconut, dried apples, vanilla all organic except vanilla which is too expensive for me. Oh ya an some organic milk or (almond/soy milk from local poor food shelf if they have it).
Still not getting all of my vitamins and minerals that prepackaged cereals. fortify with.
Cerberus:
I think the reason that it costs so much less for processed foods is that once the infrastructure is in place there is very little human involvement in the whole process for its mostly done by machines and few inspectors to make sure its operating right.
Tomatoes for example takes many people to plant and harvest.
More mechanized it is with fewer people involved in process the cheaper it is. Man power is the greatest expense in the whole process. Especially when you include health coverage, vacations, overtime, retirement, etc.
We can talk till we are blue in the face, The real impact of change is when we take action based on information we have talked about. So lets do more action to create change. :)
I treat cooking as a something of a leisure pursuit, from that perspective an hour a day isn't a big deal. It gives my wife and I a bit of time to chat, or I listen to the radio. I reckon the easiest way to create more time in life is to ditch the TV (and spend less time on forums like this!)
One of the biggest things with preparing fresh food is practice and a decent set of knives, I know that sounds obvious, but how many people actually do it enough to get good at it?
Actually tomatoes compared to many other hand picked fruit are not that labor intensive. I used to pick the things as a student.
Bowman I guess I wasn't referring to how easy it was to pick just the number of people involved It takes more money to pay people than it is to pay a machine to do the same job.
We can talk till we are blue in the face, The real impact of change is when we take action based on information we have talked about. So lets do more action to create change. :)
My Earthship provides me with year 'round tomatoes. Just me, but sometimes my wife picks a few. It only seems labor intensive with mass production, and tougher skinned tomatoes are being developed so that machines replace people with harvesting. So agriculture needs a lot less people with fossil fueled mass production. We certainly don't need the number of low IQ laborers we've got and who are reproducing at an 11 year doubling rate.
The Human Overcrowding Syndrome is characterized by anxiety, hostility and depression. All of it many hundreds of times worse than 50 years ago. Drugs used to combat the symptoms are pollutants in our water supplies along with birth control hormones and insecticides/herbicides. Most places need a good water filter. The air is full of small particles of soot and mercury is settling everywhere from Chinese and our own coal fired power plants. Their $2/day cheap labor from overpopulation refines and processes food and sends it back to us, sometimes polluted, too. Petrochemicals with high levels of heavy metal allowed for fertilizer grade chemicals are helping to pollute estuaries worldwide, and even pristine mountain lakes have mercury contaminated wild fish. The rules for organic food are sometimes a joke, and their profiteering is sometimes too much for the average person, let alone poor, to afford.
The world will run out of oil for this massive agriculture and distribution, along with the groundwater that has increased yields 83%. The price of food is already beginning to skyrocket. More people equals more demand for jobs and food, increasing prices and lowering wages. Profiteering and taking advantage, to rampant law breaking are allowed when they shouldn't be. The limited diet leads to malnutrition diseases, both from deficiencies and lowered immunity.
The answer is immediate population reduction and a return to cottage farming with favoritism to those with enough intelligence to learn nutrition and sustainable agriculture, water recycling, composting, and sustainable alternative energy systems and transportation.
In all your decisions and actions, think first of the consequences 7 generations from now. Ute Rule of Life
Johnny, I agree.
Now for the clincher.... what about livestock and meat consumption? I figure the world has two choices. dramatically reduce meat consumption, or turn to more and more to feedlot factory farming practices. The consequences of each choice are huge. The first choice will lead to a massive decline in livestock farming and economic ruin for many graziers, however, land will be freed up for plant food production, much water will be saved and GHG emissions will be significantly reduced. The second option can only exacerbate all the problems that are currently looming, including water usage, pollutants, health issues etc...
So, the over-riding question is, are people willing to forgo the "luxury" of eating meat to a large degree? Once upon a time, meat was was not a dietary staple, and many countries even now consume very little dairy. However, the consumption of these foods in Westernised countries is enormous. Thoughts?
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams
we are omnivores for a reason we need balance of plant and meat for proper nutrition. key is to cut the over consumption in combination of reducing population by doing both we could reduce the need for the large number of cattle. only have dairy during the time of birth to sustain the herd numbers not by forcing breading.
We can talk till we are blue in the face, The real impact of change is when we take action based on information we have talked about. So lets do more action to create change. :)
Hi Corey, I hate to break it to you, but humans can get by just fine without meat, as long as the rest of the diet is balanced (just as a diet that includes meat also must be balanced for good health). The "meat is necessary/dairy is necessary" argument is another fib, spun by the livestock industry.
There have been numerous articles over recent times that show strong evidence for meat consumption being related to colon and breast cancer. I read the China Study recently, written by a scientist who set out to show how valuable meat is in the human diet. He is now a vegan, spurred by his findings over a considerable longitudinal study.
This is where this debate gets a little sticky, but I should reiterate, that this is not about "everyone on the planet should immediately become a vegan", but about the ecological disaster of current dietary practices and trends. If we can live well on foods that are less damaging to the environment, why wouldn't we?
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams
HTMO hormone is the culprit you refer too. Which get cows to produce more milk also increasing the infection rate of the udder.
I suspect the cancers related were not around before the hormones and antibiotics were so widely used. Cancer for most part was unheard to me when I was a child.
We can talk till we are blue in the face, The real impact of change is when we take action based on information we have talked about. So lets do more action to create change. :)
Now for the clincher.... what about livestock and meat consumption? I figure the world has two choices. dramatically reduce meat consumption, or turn to more and more to feedlot factory farming practices. The consequences of each choice are huge. The first choice will lead to a massive decline in livestock farming and economic ruin for many graziers, however, land will be freed up for plant food production, much water will be saved and GHG emissions will be significantly reduced. The second option can only exacerbate all the problems that are currently looming, including water usage, pollutants, health issues etc...
So, the over-riding question is, are people willing to forgo the "luxury" of eating meat to a large degree? Once upon a time, meat was was not a dietary staple, and many countries even now consume very little dairy. However, the consumption of these foods in Westernised countries is :eek:enormous. Thoughts?
There will have to be much less meat eating. Cottage farming allows for small aquaculture (trout, catfish, or tilapia) and raising rabbits for meat and fur/skin, and chickens for eggs, meat, insulation/pillows. The are nutrients in meat necessary for proper growth, also present in eating gross amounts of cheese. Insufficiency leads to ADD and ADHD disorders, especially in boys. This was in Mother Earth News about 3 years ago.
Grazing lands are poor farmlands and would be used up, where they can be used, quickly. In my studies, all groundwater will be gone and surface water polluted and used by 2040. By 2070 all farmland soil will be depleted, and by 2140, if humans actually kept up alive and overpopulated, there would be no soil left on Earth. I could go into much detail on the various ways and causes of soil depletion--they are numerous.
Many peoples are from stock who were meat over-eaters(like the American Indians and Eskimos), and they will, along with others, take the most plentiful meat bearing animals available. This is their own kind--humans, during times of crop failures from GW or some other desperation from lack of food. :eek:
In all your decisions and actions, think first of the consequences 7 generations from now. Ute Rule of Life
"The are nutrients in meat necessary for proper growth, also present in eating gross amounts of cheese. Insufficiency leads to ADD and ADHD disorders, especially in boys. This was in Mother Earth News about 3 years ago." - Johnny Electriglide.
Johnny, I have never ever heard of that story, and have never read any peer-reviewed journal article that suggests that eating meat prevents ADD or ADHD. (And, I have read heaps on that condition).
I suggest that the nutrients needed for good health and nutrition are all found in plants first. If meat is necessary for growth, then how do animals like elephants grow so large on plant matter? There was some talk a while back about omega oils being necessary for brain function, however, rich sources of the right omegas actually come from plants and algae in the first place... and the way the oceans are being pillaged of fish at the moment, it might be best for us to give the fish a miss, and farm the algae instead. Much less resource consumption and less wasteful, not to mention more ethical.
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams
Elephant DNA a bit different than Human for one they are herbivores we are omnivores human DNA may be a bit more complex than elephants so are bodies have more function than elephant or if not more, then different. Elephants can't manipulate the environment like we can. I know if I go without meat for too long my brain starts craving the stuff, not as addiction but vital nutrition for body function which will create craving for something we are low on. I remember reading about it in some "MAYO CLINIC" literature on how the body reacts to deficiency its when we ignore the craving that we get into trouble.
Personal example: Is I was low on salt since I never add it to my diet and have been eating primarily unprocessed foods. I had a sharp and clear craving for pretzels because it has salt all over it. so I eat some and the craving for pretzels goes completely away. my normal thinking kicks in and I stay clear of pretzels, because its preprocessed.
I am also curious as to which plant has salt in it that is within 100 miles of most locations?
plants have protein but I suspect its a bit different to the protein found in meat samething with fat.
We can talk till we are blue in the face, The real impact of change is when we take action based on information we have talked about. So lets do more action to create change. :)
Corey, you will only crave meat if you are not getting enough of the nutrients from other sources... your brain has been conditioned to think "Meat is the answer" I can assure you it is not. the thought of meat makes me retch these days, now that my mind is clear. Try and get a hold of the China Study and get back to me.
Alternatively, you can download and watch this:
Google Video result for http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1308977765978236346
I post this with goodwill and the desire to educate. Make up your own mind, but at least listen with an open mind.
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams
Sorry don't watch Internet video too energy intensive. OK what food can be found locally from North central USA that can substitute that is relatively priced as meat? :confused:
Is there a text version? I am open minded so long as it will help re balance the Ecosystem. And the total cost is not to high such as bio fuel and biomass fuels.
We can talk till we are blue in the face, The real impact of change is when we take action based on information we have talked about. So lets do more action to create change. :)
Hi Corey, thanks for being so open-minded. This link explains things fairly briefly:
PCRM--Health--The Protein Myth
Protein deficiency is extremely rare, and generally only seen in extremely poor countries where starvation is the issue.
Generally if you focus on eating whole grain foods (less processing, higher nutritional content) like wholegrain breads, pasta, brown rice, beans, nuts, eat a little tofu or other soy products like TVP (which makes great addition to stews together with lentils, peas, carrots etc and some type of soy sauce or even Braggs Aminos for flavour) you will fill yourself up easily. It is far cheaper to eat plant-based protein if you keep it simple. Also make sure you include fresh fruit and vegetables, lots of them. I notice you said this was hard to get where you live.. are there any local markets? Asian grocery stores often have good quality produce and are often cheaper than supermarkets. A wide variety of whole fresh foods is the key to good nutrition.
The beauty of eating like this is you bypass the entire recycling of these foods through the meat industry, thus saving a whole production step. Whatsmore, so much of the grain industry presently used to feed livestock could be used to feed people instead. In the US, some 70-80% of grain produced goes to feed livestock. Imagine how well that could be utilised to feed the starving millions. In Australia, that figure is around 60%, but we don't have the massive feedlot systems that the US has... yet, but they are on the increase, particularly to supply the export industry to countries like Japan.
Second hand bookstores can be a good place to find books for info. There is heaps of info on the net too, and recipes etc. :)
Here is an excerpt from the book.. the Introduction:
http://www.thechinastudy.com/PDFs/ChinaStudy_Excerpt.pdf
Here is a brochure you can download that gives a good overview of eating healthy plant based foods:
http://www.veganoutreach.org/guide/gce.pdf
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams
Surely it should just come down to eating a balanced diet and taking full personal responsibility for the sustainability of your diet? The way it's farmed/caught, the way it's processed, the way it's transported, the way it's packaged, the way it's sold, the way it's cooked, even the way you wash the dishes.
We do have Asian foods the problem from here is that the bulk of it is shipped from over seas and I have personally encountered expensive wild type rice to be contaminated with mold and unfit for consumption. Not only that too many miles involved. I am smack dab in the middle of the corn/wheat belt USA. I do get most of my produce from the farmers market and I try to get it from the Hmong, Asians, and Cambodians. I been tempted to say to them to up there prices a little since they are selling at about 1/2 of the white counterparts. They put in just as much effort and more in some cases. I only think it is fair they get what they put into producing it.(They use a lot more hand labor without all of the oil using equipment that others use, which is a big plus.)
I have been kind of eating as you describe its the lack of variety that gets me so been resorting to cold cut turkey and keeping it to 1 serving or less per meal.
I have cut milk to 1/4-1/3 fat free cheese but in limit because its expensive income keeps it in check. I rarely eat eggs.
I been working a general supplement in just to be safe. One bottle will last me 1 year or more so I think the energy intensiveness of producing it is worth while to a point.
been eating a lot of whole grain bulk lately fave is 1/2 cup oatmeal, 1/3 cup of 7 grain hot cereal, which has flax in it(which is ground at a mill somewhere in the USA), some dried apple some shredded unsweetened coconut, few died blue berry, 2 or 3 types of raisin, and little pecan or walnut. I refuse to eat almond because of the mono farming practice and the toll it is taking on our honey bee populations.
Bowman I do for I only get 834$ per month after rent of 240+phone of 28 the rest been going to food. I have about 100$ left each month which is saved in case of bike breakdowns or such.
We can talk till we are blue in the face, The real impact of change is when we take action based on information we have talked about. So lets do more action to create change. :)
Corey, that grain mixture sounds great and very wholesome.
As far as Asian grocers being cheaper for fresh produce, I think they are supporting their own community by keeping food at a realistic price. The Asians who live around here have little home market gardens for their greens and such, and I think that is why they seem to be able to sell so cheaply. As far as rice goes, I eat very little of it, as it is so water intensive to grow. It uses the most water out of all grains grown. In Australia, rice production causes salinity problems, which no doubt you are aware, is a big problem over here.
Other grains I find highly nutritious and cheap are quinoa (pronounced keen-wah), which is really a seed from a green spinach family plant. Is great as a side dish, you cook it with equal parts water until the water has absorbed.. takes about 10 mins. Then I mix in some freshly chopped herbs and green onions and add some salt and pepper and a dash of olive oil.
Bowman, yes, it is simply an issue of balanced diet that has minimal impact in many ways, including maintained health. The thing that horrifies me after reading the China study is that so much disease that is currently accepted as normal or "genetic", such as cancer, is easily prevented by avoiding animal protein.
The author explains the misconception of meat as a high quality protein. It seems that high quality protein (that contains the complete strings of amino acids in one serve, as opposed to less complete plant proteins that take more time to be assimilated in the body) triggers aggressive cell division. This is fine if there are no lurking carcinogens, but let's face it, we are exposed to more carcinogens in this day and age than ever before. Therefore, the faster cell turnover prevents the cells with damaged DNA from being normally removed from a person's system in time. Slower assimilation of proteins from plant foods actually allows the body to get rid of damaged DNA before it has time to turn to reproduce and eventually become a tumour.
The long term effect of this, of course, is the huge burden of ill health that is being seen in Western Societies. Quite simply, the more meat that is eaten, the more disease that is seen.
This issue alone is frightening when we consider that previously low meat-eating societies are being encouraged to take up meat eating as display of cultural wealth. And where is all this extra meat going to come from? Well the livestock industry is rubbing it's hands together in glee. The governments are trying to dull down the revelations of science that are being uncovered, as they don't want a mass hysteria about meat-eating that will impact on the meat industry. Meanwhile, the little person is fed a great walloping dose of lies and truly believe they are doing the right thing by increasing animal proteins in their diet, either that, or they are ignorant (and intentionally kept so by the powers that be) as to the detrimental effects of this on their health.
One would think, logically, that Government agencies would ideally act in the interest of the masses and immediately implement changes in dietary recommendations to prevent the enormous health burden that is looming on the horizon. But no. They are just people too, and love their texas t-bone... it's a cultural icon. :(
Sorry for ranting.. but I just feel this is a really important issue from so many angles.
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams
PCRM--Health--The Protein Myth
Protein deficiency is extremely rare, and generally only seen in extremely poor countries where starvation is the issue.
Generally if you focus on eating whole grain foods (less processing, higher nutritional content) like wholegrain breads, pasta, brown rice, beans, nuts, eat a little tofu or other soy products like TVP (which makes great addition to stews together with lentils, peas, carrots etc and some type of soy sauce or even Braggs Aminos for flavour) you will fill yourself up easily. It is far cheaper to eat plant-based protein if you keep it simple. Also make sure you include fresh fruit and vegetables, lots of them. I notice you said this was hard to get where you live.. are there any local markets? Asian grocery stores often have good quality produce and are often cheaper than supermarkets. A wide variety of whole fresh foods is the key to good nutrition.
Corey - we can eat entirely local and vegetarian in our region. I have been doing it for about a year. I do all of my shopping at the Farmer's Market and then freeze, can, or dehydrate what I don't use - so that we can eat locally in the winter.
We simply need to change how we think about food/eating.
Corey, just to clarify, I don't advocate getting rid of all animals, as you correctly point out, animals are part of the ecosystem, when they exist in natural numbers, in natural areas as part of the food cycle. What I object to is the mass use of animals, by humans, for an unnecessary food that is also increasingly being proven to be harmful both to human health, and the health of the environment.
Methane also comes from the breath of cattle and all ruminants. It is produced by the digestive process. One could easily measure the amount of methane emitted by a living creature, and then estimate the amount produced by vast quantities of those creatures using math.
There is no way we can easily contain methane coming from permafrost, but we can easily eliminate the methane being produced by livestock by simply turning to plant foods.
Emme, great to hear! I try to do the same, but I don't have a dehydrator. Our climate here is fairly conducive to fresh produce all year round, as long as one is eating seasonally. Things like some nuts and grains I still have to purchase, but our diet is mostly fresh fruit and veg, so our impact is minimal. (I hope)
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams
Wonder if methane given off by cattle could be reduced by changing there food back to what it was they were meant to eat. which definitely was not corn or whole grain in large quantity. they are naturally designed to eat grass so I am wondering if we get them back to what they eat naturally would help.
cutting dairy out of are diet would help greatly.
Emma I do use the same farmers market you do(I think) and buy almost all of my produce there and as far as fruit I Occasionally get it from the good food store. you From Rochester right? I am servicecatguy from footprint.
I do not have enough financial resources to buy produce in advance for winter for freezing/ canning/ dehydrating I wish I could but I can't 2/3 or more of my budget goes to food to just eat here and now for the most part. I buy primarily from the Asian/ Hmong/ Cambodians. for there farming technique is old school by hand no draft animals or power equipment. I often take a moment to watch them farm when I get a chance. They are also a bit cheaper that local white farmers who use draft animals or machinery.
I have already cut my dairy by 3/4 or more.
If I eat meat I try to stick to chicken or turkey sliced meat for sandwiches and try to limit it to 1 serving at a time. So 1 pound or 2 will last me a whole month.
only fruit that I know of that is local is strawberry, raspberry, maybe some blueberry if your lucky, and some apples.
Veggies several variety of spinach, several types of onion, asparagus, lettuce(I stick to only the dark green or red lettuce since the light green has hardly no nutritional value), radish(can't eat I am allergic to that family of veggie effects my heart) Beats(yuck, mother forced me to eat it and as a result I hate it.), pea pod(fibrous),ext.
So far since the beginning of this farmers market this is the list of variety I been eating which is not wide enough for full nutrition.
Yellow sweet onion, Asparagus, bok choy 3 species, chives, small amount of carrot, tomatoes, green pepper, 3 or 4 species of stick onion, 3 different Asian spice plant, strawberry, local made wheat bread, local made sugar free banana bread, duck eggs only 2 doz since first day of farmers market, only bought 2 lb organic grass fed beef since Jan.
I have to be careful trying "new" veggies for I am not sure how I physically react to it. So far I have found 4-6 different types I can't eat because it plays havoc on my heart rate and rhythm and just making me feel sick all around.
Grains I been getting from the bulk section at local good food store. Haven't been using to many beans yet as I am not use to cooking it and had poor success making it edible especially without adding meat.
I hardly go to the regular grocery store anymore for every time I walk in the door lately my brain screams poison or Environmentally unsustainable practice.
I do get 1/2 gal organic milk for cereal in the morning and try to limit it to that. I use fat free. And Use fat free sliced cheese for sandwiches and only use 1-2 slices at most. I cannot afford the vegan cheese or organic cheese. I avoid the preprocessed organic for mileage and price is too high.
Believe me been racking my brain on eating responsibly it is extreemly difficult with my disability income. I am almost positive I have deficiency some where. But since I can't just get a blood test to find out it is pure guess work.
I am not much for following strict diet. Its a miracle so to speak just being where I am at compared to where I was Jan. I actually stuck with it unlike other fads I have tried before.
Yes I do use occasionally a multi vitamin have no idea how safe they truly are I no longer trust companies to have my best interest at heart. Its "Equate."
We can talk till we are blue in the face, The real impact of change is when we take action based on information we have talked about. So lets do more action to create change. :)
Hi Corey, You sound much like me over the years, I think I was always a closet vegetarian but never was strict about it, I'd always eat what was put in front of me, though I think declining free food is somewhat silly, I am curious to discover first hand if this whole "we need meat" is some decadent materialistic conspiracy. Once I found millions of people have been vegetarian from fetus to old age I knew I was not getting the whole story. I am happy with how things are going so far and I am going to have a go at taking dariy out of my diet. I have a tight budget but am finding if I buy the raw produce I generally have money left over. With my left over money I am going to try all the different types of milks, soy, oat , rice, almond... life is so wonderful to explore, I feel like I have been trapped inside a box created by my mother's dogma for decades and am now free.
Be the change you want to see.
I have to stick to organic which is more expensive. My digestive track is having problems with the non organic and processed foods. I am trying to keep the mileage down on the distance my food travels as part of cutting 90% of my base line footprint which is steeper that the 90% of national average.
nuts is not something that is within a 100 mile radius here in Rochester, Minnesota, USA as far as I know. Also I am trying to avoid as much mono farming foods as possible for it is not an environmentally sustainable form of farming.
Nice to know I am not alone homer :) thanks
We can talk till we are blue in the face, The real impact of change is when we take action based on information we have talked about. So lets do more action to create change. :)
Yep - lots of nuts are available around here. Every fall I get a few hundred black walnuts piled in my shed (from the ever "generous" squirrels.) A friend near Rochester also has a hazelnut plantation.
In my yard I am growing:
Strawberries
Raspberries
Blackberries
Blueberries
Chokecherries
Roses (rose hips - very high in Vitamin C)
grapes and soon apples.
A friend has a plum tree and another a pear tree. There are a number of variety of fruits around here.
I also grow amaranth (a high protein grain)
next year I want to add quinoa (extremely high in protein).
sunflowers also grow here (eat the seeds)
That's a mighty fine garden Emme.
Puts my small plot to shame.
Be the change you want to see.
WOW Emme! I am impressed! Maybe Corey can take advantage of surplus! Wish you lived near me!
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams
hhmm :idea: makes me think of a city hydroponic building of several levels This may be something critical for cities in order to survive by growing the food right in the city limits and it can easily be protected against would be thieves to an outdoor garden.
Good idea, no capital :( (I am just not a business man type. Would absolutely have to be non-profit.)
We can talk till we are blue in the face, The real impact of change is when we take action based on information we have talked about. So lets do more action to create change. :)
That is actually a good idea Corey. I wonder how it could work in reality? Grey water recycling, effluent as nutrients. If you could keep the system clear of drug residues and chemicals, it could be done I think... hmmm indeed!
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams
I trade my surplus with neighbors for their surplus. It is a perfect little sustainable neighborhood. :) Can you try it with people near you?
Emme, I live smack bang in the middle of suburbia, and I don't even KNOW anyone else with a vege patch! I freely give away my excess herbs though. My whole front garden has edible things in it, and my friends are welcome to drop in and chop some chives, rosemary, parsley, rocket, marjoram etc.. any time they like! Sometimes they do too! My darned dogs ate nearly all the last tomato crop... little buggers.. so there were no extras of those! It's winter here now, so am resting the beds for another month, and will plant again soon for Spring/Summer. Can't wait! In the meantime, we have a local organic market every Sunday just up the road a bit, so that is tiding me through :)
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams
So its winter for Australia when it is summer for the northern hemisphere??
Never been to Australia so I don't know sorry for my ignorance in this case.
We can talk till we are blue in the face, The real impact of change is when we take action based on information we have talked about. So lets do more action to create change. :)
Yes Corey, it's winter over here down under!! :)
OK, I think it's time for me to propose a wild hypothetical for you all to ponder.
What if......
The majority of the world reduced or eliminated their meat and dairy consumption? Economic consequences aside, how do you think this might alleviate environmental stress from livestock farming.
I heard today that Australia has .... wait for it... some 520 million livestock animals. We have a human population of 21 million, so conceivable, a huge proportion of the "meat" is exported to other countries. We know that the livestock industry is extremely resource heavy, and around 61% of land in Australia is dedicated to grazing pasture. That's a hell of a lot of land that could be left for natural species to inhabit. We also have problems with feral animals that come to the water holes for livestock, we have soil erosion problems from hoofed animals, and we face loss of habitat for native species. We also have continuous problems with water shortages and drought. It's all a big mess.
Anyway, my scenario is a hypothetical for the purpose of debate.... go for it.
(For the sake of the argument, let's assume that people can actually live healthily without eating meat... I certainly do ;))
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams
37% of arable land is used for livestock and overgrazed. By 2070 all the Earth's good farm soil and land will be gone, and with continued overpopulation everyone would have to go vegetarian with the substandard grazing soil left. By 2140, with continued overpopulation, all soil on planet Earth would be gone, except a few deep small pockets. Hypothetically, of course. Overpopulation defined as anything over sustainable long term, now 900 million at Euro standard, and 1.4 billion as vegetarians at 1990 China standard of living.
For what will really happen, read my page one post.
In all your decisions and actions, think first of the consequences 7 generations from now. Ute Rule of Life
hehe... you talking Soylent Green Johnny?
Personally, I don't know why people who want to eat animal protein don't just eat insects. Renewable, sustainable? I imagine farming insects would be far less resource heavy than farming our cousin mammals. Heck, we spend so much money of killing them with pesticides, why not utilise them as a food source instead?
When all is said and done though, eating lower down the foodchain is always less wasteful of energy and resources. So why don't we all just do it? :)
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams
HMMM farming insects is going to be a problem for the insects we want to eat shares habitat of mosquitoes and other considered pests.
Right now though insects are on a decline due to habitat destruction, draining of swamp and water sheds, destruction of forests, Chemical spraying and now the insecticides that gets into the DNA of the plant which they are now finding out that it cross pollinates way easier than the companies ever let on. (I am sure they knew about it, they did not want to loose profit so they down play it as much as possible.)
I use to eat ants when I was a kid. Would put them on my sandwich mmmmm good stuff.:top:;)
Eating lower on the food chain good idea if there weren't so many mouths to feed:eek: It adds up and fast. Also have to consider the other animals we need that rely on insects for food like birds which we need to maintain our ecosystem. Unless you are prepared to go and hand pollinate and trans plant all the different plant species they are responsible for.
My guess is since we are so over populated we need a variety approach to keep bio diversity. mono any one thing is going to prove to be Environmentally unsustainable in everything we do.
In regards to meat we need to stop the world trade and free trade so that the meat is produced where it will be eaten and break the meat into small groups and spread it out. Another reason for this is so that the one that eats the meat will have to pay the direct cost to the environment right in there back yard so If they don't want to do that they will be encouraged to eat less of it or not at all depending how much they want to sacrifice there backyard. There is also less chance of spreading disease from one continent to the next which is going to become more critical when water becomes extra scarce and the climate starts to get a bit uncomfortable.
We can talk till we are blue in the face, The real impact of change is when we take action based on information we have talked about. So lets do more action to create change. :)
I though I would post back with my go at being vegetarian.
It has been 2 weeks and I just got my blood test results. My iron, calcium are all the same but I guess it has only been 2 weeks so it maybe stores, but get this my cholestorol is now 2.8 down from 3.9. (I don't think cholestorol lowering drugs can even reduce it that quick)
My energy levels are fine, the first week I did feel like meat so I tried those Sanitarium mock meats in the supermarket and they hit the spot. By the 2nd week I figured the mock meats were just phycological so I tried lentil pies and vegetable lasagne, and of course Aussie favourites like baked beans and vegemite on toast. It's great , tasty food, low cholestoral and massively reducing my carbon footprint.
I also noticed in my Googling that I am in the company Einstein and Plato, and a few Olympic Gold medalists, that picked me up a bit cause my mates we're getting me down with hippy comments and I have to say I have not seen one hippy at the vege cafe's I tried, just everyday people.
Be the change you want to see.
cerberus its more than the meat we are using chemicals and GM in our crops that have been banned in your country which is another reason for the cancers. China as far as I know is using the same thing we are in order to become an industrial nation. Also in regards to China is that its the way they are burning coal... Its a black fog of unburned coal they do not burn it as hot as we do or grind the coal as fine as we do. One of the reports out of china's leadership blame the coal burning as the culprit to the cancer. As far as I know they have not changed there diet much either. Which is better than ours. I thought I had left links here to show what the air quality in china is like.
I am still searching for local grains that are organic hard to find. I know the produce from china is contaminated from January to February I was eating produce from there and I was sick the whole time. Irritable bowel syndrome, acid reflux, heart rhythm /rate problems. It was from all the garbage(chemicals/pollution) that went into producing it there. Started eating local and organic exclusively and within 3 days it all stopped. Doctors never did figure it out, had to find the cause on my own. During this time ate very little meat as well so I know it wasn't from that.
We can talk till we are blue in the face, The real impact of change is when we take action based on information we have talked about. So lets do more action to create change. :)
I just had sex twice in one hour, it is like I am getting younger LOL, I reckon it must be this new vege diet I am on, makes sense less cholestorol more blood flow :)
Be the change you want to see.
Thank you for sharing this with us Homer! :rolleyes:
Err... *ahem* yeah. LOL
Corey, the China study compares regions in China according to dietary change as far as I am aware. I will have another look and see if they controlled for this. The found the same things in the Phillipines though too. The children with the "healthiest" western diets were the ones getting liver cancer from aflatoxin from peanuts. The consumption of peanuts was the same, but it was the meat and dairy foods that were different (same city environment). (Prior to this, it was thought that a lack of animal protein was the way to combat malnutrition. Turns out that vegetable protein is far superior for long term health.) They believe that the type of protein from animal foods has the ability to turn tumour growth "off" or "on", regardless of the presence of the carcinogen. It's quite complicated to read about.
The China Study is a part of a huge epidemiological dietary study that is still ongoing. The entire project is also known as the Oxford Study, and the evidence is growing.
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams
Anyways... back on topic. Here is a nice little summary:
Meat - is costing the Earth.
Meat—it costs the Earth. — Animals Australia e-update
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams
wonder how they are calculating the methane put off by animals.....
Are they entrapping the methane while the poo is wet? is it methane if the poo is dry... are they putting the poo in a closed vat and seeing how much methane is put off? if poo is concentrated will it put off more methane than in individual droppings on the ground spread out.
Or are they calculating how much methane is in the atmosphere as the co2 was checked?
If this was the case the methane they are reading in the atmosphere could be coming from the methane in the permafrost. and the methane hydrates at the bottom of the ocean.
I am for cutting out the dairy for the most part but animals are part of our ecosystem eliminating them would be bad on the grounds of lack of diversity.
when dealing with changing the organic things in nature we have to be careful to not upset the balance too severly.
Example of changing the organics in nature is killing wolves since we deem them pests well wolves keep the deer(among others) population in check and eliminate the sick or weakest animals as food.
the poo from cows and cattle is needed to restore ground nutrients in a organic matter other wise we need to revert to nitrates and we know what that does.
If the humans would stop sprawling and concentrate its population, then there would be no need to clear more land for grazing!!!!! We need to stop blaming it on the animals its the humans that are causing the havoc.:eek:
sorry if I am being over the top just wound up from the av forum that asked for help with deniers.
that might be the case for Australia for they are poor on agricultural land. especially with the whole center of the continent basically a desert.
We can talk till we are blue in the face, The real impact of change is when we take action based on information we have talked about. So lets do more action to create change. :)
I am starting this topic knowing full well that it will be controversial to some, as it taps into some of our deepest habits and belief systems. However, I do feel that the topic is ripe for discussion, especially in environmental circles.
I just had a discussion about my electric scooter with some bicycle riders.
They told me, that my electric scooter is not an emission free vehicle, because there are emissions to make the electric power.
So I calculated the energy cosnume to ride a montain bike with 30km/h,
searched for a web site with some tables (sorry German site only) about the GHG CO2 equivalent for different food.
The rating was like this
bicycle with 30km/h
252 g CO2/km with meat from cattele
38 g CO2/km with milk
electric scooter with 45km/h
45 g CO2/km with electric power from a coal power plant
26 g CO2/km with electric power from German mix (514g CO2/kWh)
13 g CO2/km with electric power from Austrian mix (252g CO2/kWh)
This was a very surprising result, that a bicycle driver eating only meat from cattele causes CO2 equivalent emissions like a SUV.
I am starting this topic knowing full well that it will be controversial to some, as it taps into some of our deepest habits and belief systems. However, I do feel that the topic is ripe for discussion, especially in environmental circles.
I just had a discussion about my electric scooter with some bicycle riders.
They told me, that my electric scooter is not an emission free vehicle, because there are emissions to make the electric power.
So I calculated the energy cosnume to ride a montain bike with 30km/h,
searched for a web site with some tables (sorry German site only) about the GHG CO2 equivalent for different food.
The rating was like this
bicycle with 30km/h
252 g CO2/km with meat from cattele
38 g CO2/km with milk
electric scooter with 45km/h
45 g CO2/km with electric power from a coal power plant
26 g CO2/km with electric power from German mix (514g CO2/kWh)
13 g CO2/km with electric power from Austrian mix (252g CO2/kWh)
This was a very surprising result, that a bicycle driver eating only meat from cattele causes CO2 equivalent emissions like a SUV.
LOL good thing we don't eat all meat 100% of the time.
Regards to the comparison just want to point out its a bit over simplified.
Cattle produce co2 and methane.
Coal Produces "locked away" co2 + equivalent gasses and mercury
Also there is a "total cost" of each. The total cost of one vs the other is quite different for it has a different source that the Co2 is derived from.
Co2 derived from animal came from living sources of fuel which is part of the balance already in place.
Co2 from coal Is "locked away CO2" when burned it is released upsetting the gas balance in the atmosphere thus creating havoc far beyond any animal can without sufficient numbers.
Why the issue of meat is so important is the type of gas put out and the total number of animals involved the gas that is important in regards to animals is methane 6-10 times stronger than co2.
Its not really about whether we eat meat or not its about how much of it we eat. which will dictate how many meat animals we have and how they are raised and utilized..
:top:
Got to give you credit though on trying to compare the two.:peace:
I am curious the energy rating of the bike, Did you get that info from the manufacurer of the bike or the sales represenative? Or did you get the rating from a independent source that is nutral regarding the bike?
The reason I asked is we here in the USA are finding out that many companies Understate the energy use of there products big time.
Only way to know how much electricity recharging your bike takes, is to drain the battery to dead, then have a tester plugged in between your bike and outlet. Keep track of the total draw of electricity.
To figure out the Co2+equivalent per/Km, Drive the bike till the battery goes dead keeping track of the total miles driven on a battery charge.
(Use actual numbers by independents to find out the Co2+equivalent output by the power plant you tend to draw from)Never trust a company to give you actual numbers especially when it involves there own company.
Step one: You want to know how much Co2+ equivalent is in a single battery charge Take "total charge on tester meter" divide it into the "total electricity number generated in 1 kWh time" multiply this total into the "total Co2+equivalent number that was released in the 1 kWh time" This gives you the C02 + equivalent per battery charge.
To get the Co2+equivalent per Km Take the "Co2+Equivalent per battery charge" divided by the "total KM traveled on a single charge" Gives you The Co2+equivalent per Km".
Realize the last section is off topic but I wanted to keep it near the post I was responding to which is part of the comparison of co2 out put between food derived co2 vs technology derived co2
We can talk till we are blue in the face, The real impact of change is when we take action based on information we have talked about. So lets do more action to create change. :)