Eating ecologically and ethically

[Corey]

Bowman I guess I wasn't referring to how easy it was to pick just the number of people involved It takes more money to pay people than it is to pay a machine to do the same job.

[Johnny Electriglide]

My Earthship provides me with year 'round tomatoes. Just me, but sometimes my wife picks a few. It only seems labor intensive with mass production, and tougher skinned tomatoes are being developed so that machines replace people with harvesting. So agriculture needs a lot less people with fossil fueled mass production. We certainly don't need the number of low IQ laborers we've got and who are reproducing at an 11 year doubling rate.
The Human Overcrowding Syndrome is characterized by anxiety, hostility and depression. All of it many hundreds of times worse than 50 years ago. Drugs used to combat the symptoms are pollutants in our water supplies along with birth control hormones and insecticides/herbicides. Most places need a good water filter. The air is full of small particles of soot and mercury is settling everywhere from Chinese and our own coal fired power plants. Their $2/day cheap labor from overpopulation refines and processes food and sends it back to us, sometimes polluted, too. Petrochemicals with high levels of heavy metal allowed for fertilizer grade chemicals are helping to pollute estuaries worldwide, and even pristine mountain lakes have mercury contaminated wild fish. The rules for organic food are sometimes a joke, and their profiteering is sometimes too much for the average person, let alone poor, to afford.
The world will run out of oil for this massive agriculture and distribution, along with the groundwater that has increased yields 83%. The price of food is already beginning to skyrocket. More people equals more demand for jobs and food, increasing prices and lowering wages. Profiteering and taking advantage, to rampant law breaking are allowed when they shouldn't be. The limited diet leads to malnutrition diseases, both from deficiencies and lowered immunity.
The answer is immediate population reduction and a return to cottage farming with favoritism to those with enough intelligence to learn nutrition and sustainable agriculture, water recycling, composting, and sustainable alternative energy systems and transportation.

[Cerberus]

Johnny, I agree.

Now for the clincher.... what about livestock and meat consumption? I figure the world has two choices. dramatically reduce meat consumption, or turn to more and more to feedlot factory farming practices. The consequences of each choice are huge. The first choice will lead to a massive decline in livestock farming and economic ruin for many graziers, however, land will be freed up for plant food production, much water will be saved and GHG emissions will be significantly reduced. The second option can only exacerbate all the problems that are currently looming, including water usage, pollutants, health issues etc...

So, the over-riding question is, are people willing to forgo the "luxury" of eating meat to a large degree? Once upon a time, meat was was not a dietary staple, and many countries even now consume very little dairy. However, the consumption of these foods in Westernised countries is enormous. Thoughts?

[Corey]

we are omnivores for a reason we need balance of plant and meat for proper nutrition. key is to cut the over consumption in combination of reducing population by doing both we could reduce the need for the large number of cattle. only have dairy during the time of birth to sustain the herd numbers not by forcing breading.

[Cerberus]

Hi Corey, I hate to break it to you, but humans can get by just fine without meat, as long as the rest of the diet is balanced (just as a diet that includes meat also must be balanced for good health). The "meat is necessary/dairy is necessary" argument is another fib, spun by the livestock industry.

There have been numerous articles over recent times that show strong evidence for meat consumption being related to colon and breast cancer. I read the China Study recently, written by a scientist who set out to show how valuable meat is in the human diet. He is now a vegan, spurred by his findings over a considerable longitudinal study.

This is where this debate gets a little sticky, but I should reiterate, that this is not about "everyone on the planet should immediately become a vegan", but about the ecological disaster of current dietary practices and trends. If we can live well on foods that are less damaging to the environment, why wouldn't we?

[Corey]

HTMO hormone is the culprit you refer too. Which get cows to produce more milk also increasing the infection rate of the udder.
I suspect the cancers related were not around before the hormones and antibiotics were so widely used. Cancer for most part was unheard to me when I was a child.

[Johnny Electriglide]

Originally Posted by Cerberus

Johnny, I agree.

Now for the clincher.... what about livestock and meat consumption? I figure the world has two choices. dramatically reduce meat consumption, or turn to more and more to feedlot factory farming practices. The consequences of each choice are huge. The first choice will lead to a massive decline in livestock farming and economic ruin for many graziers, however, land will be freed up for plant food production, much water will be saved and GHG emissions will be significantly reduced. The second option can only exacerbate all the problems that are currently looming, including water usage, pollutants, health issues etc...

So, the over-riding question is, are people willing to forgo the "luxury" of eating meat to a large degree? Once upon a time, meat was was not a dietary staple, and many countries even now consume very little dairy. However, the consumption of these foods in Westernised countries is enormous. Thoughts?

There will have to be much less meat eating. Cottage farming allows for small aquaculture (trout, catfish, or tilapia) and raising rabbits for meat and fur/skin, and chickens for eggs, meat, insulation/pillows. The are nutrients in meat necessary for proper growth, also present in eating gross amounts of cheese. Insufficiency leads to ADD and ADHD disorders, especially in boys. This was in Mother Earth News about 3 years ago.
Grazing lands are poor farmlands and would be used up, where they can be used, quickly. In my studies, all groundwater will be gone and surface water polluted and used by 2040. By 2070 all farmland soil will be depleted, and by 2140, if humans actually kept up alive and overpopulated, there would be no soil left on Earth. I could go into much detail on the various ways and causes of soil depletion--they are numerous.
Many peoples are from stock who were meat over-eaters(like the American Indians and Eskimos), and they will, along with others, take the most plentiful meat bearing animals available. This is their own kind--humans, during times of crop failures from GW or some other desperation from lack of food.

[Cerberus]

"The are nutrients in meat necessary for proper growth, also present in eating gross amounts of cheese. Insufficiency leads to ADD and ADHD disorders, especially in boys. This was in Mother Earth News about 3 years ago." - Johnny Electriglide.

Johnny, I have never ever heard of that story, and have never read any peer-reviewed journal article that suggests that eating meat prevents ADD or ADHD. (And, I have read heaps on that condition).

I suggest that the nutrients needed for good health and nutrition are all found in plants first. If meat is necessary for growth, then how do animals like elephants grow so large on plant matter? There was some talk a while back about omega oils being necessary for brain function, however, rich sources of the right omegas actually come from plants and algae in the first place... and the way the oceans are being pillaged of fish at the moment, it might be best for us to give the fish a miss, and farm the algae instead. Much less resource consumption and less wasteful, not to mention more ethical.

[Corey]

Elephant DNA a bit different than Human for one they are herbivores we are omnivores human DNA may be a bit more complex than elephants so are bodies have more function than elephant or if not more, then different. Elephants can't manipulate the environment like we can. I know if I go without meat for too long my brain starts craving the stuff, not as addiction but vital nutrition for body function which will create craving for something we are low on. I remember reading about it in some "MAYO CLINIC" literature on how the body reacts to deficiency its when we ignore the craving that we get into trouble.
Personal example: Is I was low on salt since I never add it to my diet and have been eating primarily unprocessed foods. I had a sharp and clear craving for pretzels because it has salt all over it. so I eat some and the craving for pretzels goes completely away. my normal thinking kicks in and I stay clear of pretzels, because its preprocessed.

I am also curious as to which plant has salt in it that is within 100 miles of most locations?

plants have protein but I suspect its a bit different to the protein found in meat samething with fat.

[Cerberus]

Corey, you will only crave meat if you are not getting enough of the nutrients from other sources... your brain has been conditioned to think "Meat is the answer" I can assure you it is not. the thought of meat makes me retch these days, now that my mind is clear. Try and get a hold of the China Study and get back to me.

Alternatively, you can download and watch this:

Google Video result for http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1308977765978236346

I post this with goodwill and the desire to educate. Make up your own mind, but at least listen with an open mind.