Say no to plastic bags

[sevko]

Between 500 billion and a trillion plastic grocery bags are consumed worldwide each year.

The most ubiquitous consumer item on Earth, the lowly plastic bag is an environmental scourge like none other.

Say no to plasic bags!



Please visit:

http://www.project-forest.o rg/index...dp=plastic.php


Intention of project is to use the strength of numbers and synergy of action to make positive changes.


It is our goal to wake awareness of problems to population and give people means to act in few single steps.

People do not like problems, they strive to forget them (if you don't think about it maybe it will disappear).

Because of that please send this email to your friends and ask them to do the same.

With time news will spread and awareness will grow and with awareness the will to act will be stronger.



Best regards.

[rc white]

I think that the clamour one hears against plastic bags is little more than tokenism.
People give up plastic bags and it seems are suffused with such a "green" glow that they then happily fill their "green" bags with all manner of plastic packaging and Aluminium cans etc., which are just as bad if not worse.
The reason why plastic bags are given away is because the stuff they are made from, ethylene, is a very cheap by product of oil refining and natural gas production, if plastic bags are banned what happens to the ethylene? it will no doubt still end up in the environment in some form or another but this time paid for by consumers.
The contention that plastic bag banning should be done because wildlife gets caught up in these bags, (cut to heart rending picture of same), completely disregards the pressure of other forms of environmental degradation that overpopulation, overfishing and chemical pollution etc causes.
The campaign to ban plastic bags is nothing more than picking the low hanging fruit. It allows politicians to claim that they have done something for the environment, environmentalists to feel good, the green glow everybody is bathed in blinding them to the fact it is just tokenism, that allows the larger issues to be forgotten.

[Banksia Rose]

hello rc white and sevko,

Any ideas on how to house the rubbish we accumulate? I used to use plastic grocery/general shopping bags, (I'm sure they are not all ethylene...) but since converting to green bags, my housemate just bought some... Not my idea...

Would love any suggestions.

Thanks and regards!

[Karl]

Originally Posted by rc white

I think that the clamour one hears against plastic bags is little more than tokenism.
People give up plastic bags and it seems are suffused with such a "green" glow that they then happily fill their "green" bags with all manner of plastic packaging and Aluminium cans etc., which are just as bad if not worse.
The reason why plastic bags are given away is because the stuff they are made from, ethylene, is a very cheap by product of oil refining and natural gas production, if plastic bags are banned what happens to the ethylene? it will no doubt still end up in the environment in some form or another but this time paid for by consumers.
The contention that plastic bag banning should be done because wildlife gets caught up in these bags, (cut to heart rending picture of same), completely disregards the pressure of other forms of environmental degradation that overpopulation, overfishing and chemical pollution etc causes.
The campaign to ban plastic bags is nothing more than picking the low hanging fruit. It allows politicians to claim that they have done something for the environment, environmentalists to feel good, the green glow everybody is bathed in blinding them to the fact it is just tokenism, that allows the larger issues to be forgotten.

True, up to a point. This campaign of aversion to plastic bags is nothing "new". Like many other aspects, it is simply a "recycling" of an idea from the last time "environmental consciousness / green living" became popular in the early 1990's.

To some extent, plastic bags are very useful, and many of us have become accustomed to recycling or re-using them (albeit on a small-scale) for storing various items, such as documents. That can lead to problems with some of these "eco-friendly" plastic bags, especially the photo-degradable ones. Sometimes you might unknowingly put something in one of those, and a few months later instead of being stored in a bag, you find it surrounded by "shards" of crumbling powdery plastic-bag residue.

But as cynical or critical as some of that may sound, and the fact that plastic bags probably do not represent much in terms of the "bigger picture" of the environmental issues at stake, it does represent an example of small-scale individual action, and helps to some extent in providing a "beacon of hope" to many, at a time of both increased apathy and pessimism to environmental issues and the sustainability of our future.

The reality is that individuals can do little or nothing (directly) to address the "real" issues of water pollution, emissions, and the environmental policies of politicians and corporations, but at least this is something. That scenario you mentioned of people being "suffused with a green glow" and then doing things which neutralise the positive effects of their actions may be true to some extent, but it is unlikely that it would be so for the majority of people (we can still hope).

Back in the day (early 1990's) one of the watchwords was "Think Globally, Act Locally" and that is just as (if not more) relevant now than it was then. It is like watching history repeat itself, but there is no reason to not be optimistic that it may last longer this time. This is the most practical way any "culture" of environmental concern can become entrenched, and remain in the mainstream. It's really up to us (not the politicians or the corporations). We as a "species" have not reached where we are today by chance or an inability to adapt to new circumstances in our environments. Survival is entrenched in our DNA, and despite modern technology natural selection will always prevail.

Overall, plastic bags may not be much in terms of solving the bigger environmental aspects of sustainability, but they are a useful starting point, and a way to encourage people to begin (and continue) thinking more about the impacts of their simple day-to-day activities, and reassure them that their small (local) actions can indeed cumulatively add up to something more substantial (globally).

In any case, some of the concerns about plastic bags, such as the effects of plastic materials on endangered species of marine turtles, are quite valid.

[rc white]

As far as I know Rose bags used in Australia are made from high density polyethylene.
I also use the bags for rubbish disposal and I remember starting to do this many years ago when supermarkets in Australia introduced the bio degradable plastic bag.
These quickly disappeared as they had the unfortunate habit of bio degrading as you were taking your shopping home, perhaps they have improved since then.

[CptnFantastic]

[quote=Karl;4213]

Originally Posted by rc white

I think that the clamour one hears against plastic bags is little more than tokenism.
People give up plastic bags and it seems are suffused with such a "green" glow that they then happily fill their "green" bags with all manner of plastic packaging and Aluminium cans etc., which are just as bad if not worse.

Overall, plastic bags may not be much in terms of solving the bigger environmental aspects of sustainability, but they are a useful starting point, and a way to encourage people to begin (and continue) thinking more about the impacts of their simple day-to-day activities, and reassure them that their small (local) actions can indeed cumulatively add up to something more substantial (globally).

Ok, since you opened up this can of worms, what do you propose we do? I'm pursuing a career in the sustainable materials field, and I would appreciate your ideas, and also if you could point me to the sources that paint the "bigger picture", I would appreciate it as well.

[Karl]

[quote=CptnFantastic;4351]

Originally Posted by Karl

Ok, since you opened up this can of worms, what do you propose we do? I'm pursuing a career in the sustainable materials field, and I would appreciate your ideas, and also if you could point me to the sources that paint the "bigger picture", I would appreciate it as well.

I am not convinced that any of the four previous participants opened a “can of worms” in this thread; please clarify what that statement refers to, especially since the quote in the above post is actually a composite quote of two (individual and separate) replies – rc white (post #2) and Karl (post #4); further to which, neither of the two repliers from which your composite quote was created, were the one who actually started this thread! But I know that is not the real point.

We are still talking about plastic bags, right? To stay within the topic of this thread, you may need to revisit the original assertions of sevko (in post #1).

What exactly is the “sustainable materials field”; moreover, is it an entire field in itself or a part of a wider programme in, say, Materials Science or Materials Technology or Mechanical Engineering or Environmental Management (or in some combination thereof). That will help in clarifying the motivations in so far as the exact nature of your query (especially since it appears to be premised upon the sampling of fragments of the separate posts of two individuals into a single composite entity).

The field of “sustainable materials” certainly sounds interesting, and I am sure that our members (and guests) would appreciate if you can give us more details as to what it entails. Having said that, however, I would strongly suggest it as the topic for a new thread, since this discussion is intended to focus on plastic bags (and I imagine that “sustainable materials” is far wider in focus).

What particularly intrigues me, is what processes exist that sustainably produce materials? The only such process I can think of, offhand, is photosynthesis in green plants, which is the materials production process closest to being “sustainable” – as long as the sun shines (i.e., solar energy is available for the plants to convert into matter).

Getting back to the topic, how “sustainable” are plastic bags, from a materials production perspective? If the ready availability of plastics for making consumable/non-durable items such as bags is dependent upon the ubiquity of ethylene as an industrial by-product of petro-chemical refineries, the implication is that with the increasing unavailability of (or competition for) hydrocarbons as time progresses, reliance on cheap ethylene for plastics production (as a de facto waste transfer mechanism) is in itself inherently unsustainable. Therefore, this adds another dimension to the plastic bags sustainability debate – we should probably be looking for some substitute material for things like bags for reasons other than their (direct) environmental impact.

In terms of sources pointing to a painting of a bigger picture of sustainability, I am not sure that I can help in relation to the topic of this thread, or your chosen field, but some of these may provide some generalized perspectives (of others) in that regard:

http://www.csrees.usda.gov/nea/ag_sy...fs/keynote.pdf
No Impact Man: Sustainability and the meaning of life
Big Picture TV
Bigger Thinking / Sustainability

Incidentally, you would be very aware that “worms” (by the can or otherwise) do play a critical role in the sustainability of materials in the bigger picture of Earth processes – soil conditioning, agriculture, natural recycling of nutrients and energy in the biosphere, etc. So, opening a “can of worms” in itself cannot be objectionable in the context of “sustainable materials” per se, although admittedly plastic bags are (so far) not one of the materials that we can rely on worms to recycle on our behalf…

[rc white]

At the present time ethylene is made from ethane by "steam cracking", another process makes ethanol.
Since ethanol can be made from cellulose in a sustainable way then it is conceivable that we can still have very useful polymers such as high density polyethylene as part of a biopolymer suite, from this source however it will be far too expensive to use in disposable bags.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by rc white

At the present time ethylene is made from ethane by "steam cracking", another process makes ethanol.
Since ethanol can be made from cellulose in a sustainable way then it is conceivable that we can still have very useful polymers such as high density polyethylene as part of a biopolymer suite, from this source however it will be far too expensive to use in disposable bags.

One important point is that the plant-based (as opposed to fossil-based) source of the ethylene is not expected to actually affect its status as being biodegradable – the idea of bio-polymers (despite the implication of their name) is more from the perspective of the source of the raw materials, than their actual structure or physical properties. I have not been following recent developments in degradable plastics (such as "eco-friendly" grocery bags) too closely in recent years. However, I recall that the two main areas in which degrading plastics were being developed (and to some extent marketed) in the recent past were:

• Photodegradation
• Biodegradation

However, it is important to note that the "degradability" of these materials is generally in terms of their macrostructure (as opposed to their innate properties); unlike truly biodegradable materials they do not degrade away literally to nothing. As such, while marketed as an "eco-friendly" environmental technology, they have a much more limited role in mitigating the issues associated with disposal of plastics and are not actually final solutions – in general, both the photodegradable and biodegradable plastics are usually conventional polymers modified to allow the discarded materials to lose the bulk of their structural integrity (with most of the synthetic polymer remaining chemically intact).

One approach to photodegradable plastics involved the introduction of a small amount of carbon monoxide in the polyethylene structure. The presence of the CO results in the polymer having a small proportion of randomly allocated carbonyl group, which allow them to undergo chain scission upon absorption of light in the 300-320 nm range – this mechanism gradually creating 'cracks' in the polymer chain leading to loss of structural integrity. This leads to the plastic degrading physically, although from a chemistry perspective little of the material actually decomposes – the chief advantage being that unsightly plastic litter "disappears" to a powdery residue on sufficient exposure to sunlight. The main problem is that when these materials are disposed of too quickly (i.e., buried in landfills) they do not degrade any further since they are no longer exposed to direct solar radiation

Other mechanisms for photodegradable plastics included the incorporation of a "photosensitizer" into the formulation of the plastic rather than altering the chemical constitution of the polymer; this photosensitizer being a light-absorbing substance which initiates chemical attack on the polymer molecules. For example hydrogen atom abstraction followed by attack of atmospheric oxygen – the redox properties of a number of transition metals making their compounds suitable photosensitizers.

The so-called "biodegradable" plastics have traditionally been conventional polymer materials formulated with 5-10% of starch as a binder – these have been most frequently used for the "eco-friendly" plastic grocery bags. The starch (an isomer of polyglucose) is readily biodegradable, and when this binder degrades the bag loses its structural integrity. However, once again, it is only the binder component that is actually biodegradable – the remaining synthetic polymer remains unconsumed but as a less noticeable powder (or from my personal experience as "shards" of crumbling powdery plastic bag residue). Some of the problems associated with these materials are that the binders are incompatible with climates of higher humidity (insofar as the microbial degradation is initiated before the product has fulfilled its consumer life-cycle).

A few years ago there were reports of developments in genuinely biodegradable plastics – using bacteria such as Alcaligenes eutrophus which produces the polyester polyhydroxybutyric acid (which has properties suitable for making softdrink bottles); there was also talk of developments in bacteria that produce more flexible copolymers suitable for plastic bags and packaging materials. These would be completely biodegradable plastics, but I am uncertain of how much progress has been made in that particular area.

[UKBullDog]

Originally Posted by Karl

A few years ago there were reports of developments in genuinely biodegradable plastics – using bacteria such as Alcaligenes eutrophus which produces the polyester polyhydroxybutyric acid (which has properties suitable for making softdrink bottles); there was also talk of developments in bacteria that produce more flexible copolymers suitable for plastic bags and packaging materials. These would be completely biodegradable plastics, but I am uncertain of how much progress has been made in that particular area.

I am no expert in plastics so I am talking from a laymans point of view. Would it not be dangerous to have bacteria attack plastic to degrade it? What if they start "nibbling" on plastics we need to last for a long time? That would be a disaster.

I think every little bit helps. One CAN do ones own bit and does not have to wait for everyone else or the big conglomerates to do something or force the Government to create new laws.

I found a middle way. Use less plastic bags by also using real bags for shopping. There are still needs for the odd plastic bag here or there.

Buy bins that do not have holes in them for office refuse or for the bathroom. Then empty into the trashcan outside.

Be disciplined and sort everything right away, dont mix up your trash which you then have to sort out again and then you probably wont do it.

Dont buy stuff with lots of packaging. I take some of the things off when buying and leaving it at the shops. let them get rid of it. They will soon put pressure on the manufacturers to change the packaging. It worked in Germany 20 years ago, it worked in other European countries so it can work here and elsewhere too.