biofuels vs environment is it truly better than fossil fuels?

[Corey]

That transition though is costing us dearly in the name of energy to build the infrastructure which will go to waste once its phased out and the rain forest and biodiversity destruction along with the limited fresh water that is left (once the fresh water is used we are left with poluted water beyond our ability of cleaning to drinking standards. There was a recent UK study on the I think its the olive oil bio-fuel that is being produced in Asia that is cutting down the rain forest to make room for a mono crop which has its own hazards as well. when they tallied the total cost it was 10 times more pollutant than diesel.

some also seem to forget that the water underground came from the surface eventually the pollutants will make its way down so any new water that would join the source below will be contaminated once it gets there. We really need to look at the total cost and plan things long term not just for the short term benefits this is part of being sustainable is relearning how to think in terms of long term plans vs benefits vs total cost vs permanent destruction of bio diversity etc.

On the other hand putting feed lot manure in tanks then collecting the methane as fuel, then using the manure as fertilizer after I see as a viable solution since trapping the methane Is well worth the time no matter how small the total that is put out on earth through decomposition and methane release from the permafrost ocean etc.

It also seems that the bio-fuel options in the Eyes of certain UK and USA leaders is a permanent fix. They both have decided to move it up to 30% from I think 15%. The problem that I have is that the total cost is already proving to be too great to pursue it in regards to plants in any form. Stick to waste product if you want bio-fuels.

[Bowman]

I totally agree.

Something thats interesting if you ever read the green building press/sites is that the efficiency of eco building products, such as wind turbines or bio fuel heating, are measured in terms of financial payback rather than energy payback surely this is missing the point?

[Corey]

Originally Posted by Bowman

I totally agree.

Something that's interesting if you ever read the green building press/sites is that the efficiency of Eco building products, such as wind turbines or bio fuel heating, are measured in terms of financial payback rather than energy payback surely this is missing the point?

Right on. Its big business talk. They have no interest in saving our environment just the profits gained. The only way I see it changing is through heavy regulations to prevent abuse of power especially when they have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that they cannot mange themselves with out plenty of abuse.

[Bowman]

Just to go one step further on the microgeneration bit, here in the UK there has been a big push on single household wind turbines, they have a predicted life of seven years, a financial payback of eight years, and can supply up to 20% of electricity (site dependent). The big commercial installations last up to 30 years, payback in four years, and are many many times more efficient. Yet the Government still provide grants to householders. Basically it makes absolutely no sense (unless for offgrid) to have a micro wind turbine.

Not really relevant to bio-fuels but there you go...

[CSC Julie]

I live in Illinois where all the farmers have planted corn in hopes of cashing in on the ethanol craze. There are many problems with big scale production of ethanol beginning with using corn as the carbohydrate (sugar beets give a much higher yield of fuel). On a smaller scale the production of ethanol can be very efficient if done in a closed loop type of system. This is where the waste products can be used in some way and not discarded. The heat can be used to heat a greenhouse and the by-product distillers grains can be put back on the fields for fertiliztion.
I agree that consumption must decrease but ethanol does hold some hope.
CSC Julie

[Corey]

the second one I can agree with as long as it is done with byproduct or waste from animal or humans and such. What I have a problem with is when land use comes into play and changing the land use to plant cash crop with complete disregards to long term goal of being environmentally sustainable. We are killing our eco system just mono farming food. Why on Earth would we want to compete with fuel? we use far more fuel than food. We in the USA are at a 25 year low for grain surplus. We are importing more food than exporting. ya lot is from out of season. Why do you want to drain underground drinking water to process that ethanol? Especially derived from cash crop? This form of ethanol and Biomass ethanol needs the purest water to process it. Our ecosystem is in the process of dieing from our land use abuses, as is, WHY? Do we need to add to it by destroying habitat to get the best land for cash crop? This form indicates to me that it is PURE GREED DRIVEN! This has nothing to do with finding an Environmentally sustainable practice, while wasting limited resources building a temporary infrastructure that will get phased out when hydrogen comes along if it does.

It is far more cost effective to simply reduce and simplify as much our use of limited fuels as possible through conservation. That it is to kill our ecosystem for short term gain and PROFIT DRIVEN GREED of the few at the expense of everyone else on the planet.

In the name of "sustainability" we need to stop thinking in generational terms.

Cash crop ethanol is thinking in terms of the few and one generation terms with complete disregards to sustainability. For the sake of humanity and our ecosystem it is intolerable.
CSC Julie why risk you drinking water? why risk your food supply? What is a too high of price to pay? The death of your children? friends? family? death of the entire Ecosystem Which also includes humans? We are not separate from the ecosystem as much as we like to fool our selves to believe.

definitely use closed loop systems that could reduce or eliminate livestock methane. it would especially help to reduce the energy needs of the farm which could rely less on the coal for heating and such.

The whole Idea of efficiency is to reduce our foot print not increase it just to have the appearance of being more efficient.

Sorry if I sound to be ranting on ya had to reread what ya wrote 3-4 times to get the meaning through my passion for the subject. Spent some time writing what I had up to that point so not going to erase it for it has valid points that need addressing. Especially with all the mono farming of cash crops and the "total Cost" involved. When factoring in total cost cash crops for ethanol is far more damaging than burning diesel.

I am just tired of people trying to cash in on the green movement with total disregards or ignorance to whether what they are doing has a "total cost" of more than what we are doing now.
Example ethanol processing plants and infrastructure takes HUGE amounts of energy and resources and money to build. Way more than truly known especially if any exotic non recyclable materials are used for it has to come from somewhere and it usually involves tearing up huge amounts of the ecosystem to get at it. Once that ecosystem is destroyed it is nearly or impossible to restore to it's former level Especially when large numbers or chunks of species die off or are out right killed from being displaced. In time frames of how fast it took to rip it up vs taking thousands of years or more to recover if there is any species from other areas to fill in the gap that is.

Australia out back there desert use to be tropical as the rain-forest but once upon a time humans changed the land use for personal use and greed which has lead to the desert it is today which most life can't live there.

Julie I don't mean to step on anyone's toes. What is happening to this planet because of human abuses to it is very personal to me. What is happening to this planet is tied in to what has happened to me directly by my peers.

I have no gradour of illusions of what we are doing. Converting to green living is having its toll on our failing ecosystem because of people exploiting the rest of us who truly want to save the planet from human caused catastrophe. There use of false info to confuse us through green washing and schemes such as carbon offsetting and companies saying they will be environmentally friendly when the very products they make is not and is not environmentally sustainable. prime example Ferrari car maker. It is pure luxury often times using the most exotic materials. purely for the filthy rich
and no one else. They had claimed that they would become carbon neutral and would be environmentally friendly, which is impossible due to the very nature of there products!

So sorry didn't mean to give the impresion of berating you or hurting ya.

[Corey]

thinking we need to separate the different types of ethanol so as to know which is viable and which is not and which should be pursued and which should be dropped. I don't know all the different types currently being pursued so I would appreciate help developing a list of the different types.

this way we can put into context better which routs we should pursue. if at all.

[belindab]

I would like to throw a few questions out on this subject please.

Looking at the bio fuels debate, I can't help but wonder if renewable energy sources such as solar and wind power would be more attractive? In my country we have serious problems looming with water supplies, yet I know that we are not alone - this is becoming more and more a global issue in terms of 'potable' water. Can we truly afford to consider bio-fuels if they need water and even chemical pesticides/chemical fertilisers to yield good crops for conversion into fuel?

I have heard that in the North African counties they will be building huge solar farms and will export the energy to Europe.

Will the growth of bio fuel crops, encourage developing countries to divert land away from food farming production and create food shortages or at least increase the risk of that - most developing countries have large populations with many people already facing challenges on access to clean water and food.

Finally, with regard to population growth - demographically it's very unbalanced. In my country Emiratis are outnumbered by expatriate workers and our government encourages us to have bigger families and provides us with allowances for this. In Europe, at the current birth rates in Germany and Italy, for example, I believe that the populations are under threat of sustaining themselves as the population is ageing and the birth-rate is very low - both sides of the coin need looking at I suppose - not easy to solve though.

[Corey]

Nice to see your not shying away from the serious issues we face. I been working in another forum and wow.


The key is we need to look at the type of power the tech that goes into it.

like there are many forms of bio fuels such as Cash crops, Wood waste from industry, Vegetable oils from food industry, Left over uneatable food from resteraunts if there was a way to convert it, Manure from Farming.

in regards to wind and solar it depends on the technology itself in that how much concrete and steel does it take to make the tower for wind generation does it exceed in use of resources and energy vs. the energy out put of the wind mill over its entire life.

Water is an issue period in that industry primarily is wasteful in its use along with us in the industrial world who have taps in our homes.

Population density is going to have to be handled in the location of issue in that "you made your own bed now it is time for you to sleep in it."

This is part of taking personal responsibility for our actions. By shifting population from one point to another is making someone else take responsibility for the actions of some one that caused the problems.

cutting consumption is the key. really by doing so we reduce the demand on our resources.

[CapGhG]

Let me say this please...

I agree we must all do our part to protect our planet but I think we need to take a look at the total big picture.

What we really need is for our government leaders, law makers and enforcers to get off their butts and start doing something positive to really fight global warming. There's a lot of things that can and should be done right now by our businesses and industries that would make real differences and until that happens we as individuals are just going arounds in circles and spinning our wheels. The individual cannot do it my himself.

I read the comments about methane gas but I didn't see anything about passing laws that would require the thousands of sewage treatment and landfield sites to use their vast quantities of expended gas to produce electrical energy and put it into the electrical systems. The technology to do this is available now but hardly nobody uses it and thats why its so expensive.

Another thing that can be done is to require all public tax paid entities and daily activities to start taking positive actions to stop pollution and save energy. But lets not stop there, why don't we require the same thing of the private businesses and activities? I don't know about where you live but here in Florida we still have city governments and private entities dumping raw sewage into our rivers and streams. We have laws on the books to require everybody to recycle but they're not enforced and probably half of the people don't do it.

I'm can't go into the detail of all the other ways businesses and industries can make a big difference in the global warming fight. There are just too many of them to list here. Use your imagination.

Everyone of us needs to pressure our government representatives to take actions. That is the one single most important thing we can do to fight global warming. Then we need to do all we can as individuals.