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View Poll Results: Do you think we should pursue biofuels and biomass fuels?
yes 12 66.67%
no 6 33.33%
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Rate This Thread - biofuels vs environment is it truly better than fossil fuels?.

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Old 31-05-2007, 05:49 PM
Corey Corey is offline
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Default biofuels vs environment is it truly better than fossil fuels?

U.N. is now saying what I have been saying all along about the bio fuels debates I been set against biofuels and biomass fuels from the start.
The whole thing is an example of the extreemly poor long term planning by government and big business.

FOXNews.com - U.N.: Plenty of Environmental, Economic Downside to Biofuels - Science News | Current Articles

Not sure if this topic/thread has been started or not. It definitely fits the sustainability issue though.

simply reduce consumption "Simplify"

Post your thought on why we should or shouldn't do it. and your reasons for your point of view.



How is biofuel sustainable or not sustainable?

do you truly want it because it cost less money wise than alternatives or don't want it because of the devastating impact on the environment land water mono crop etc.?

Guess what I am trying to get people to think about is the total cost and the long term effects it will have if we use vital resourses for a unsastainable fuel. Do we have the right to hurt our ecosystem and other people for our desires for comforts? Even if it means killing the planet in the proccess?

Last edited by Corey; 31-05-2007 at 11:35 PM. Reason: Adding some hard questions that we need to ask ourselves and those around us as part of reteaching us into thinking different
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Old 04-06-2007, 09:05 AM
isenhand isenhand is offline
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I think we should pursue bio-fuels. However, they do not solve the problem we face and have associated environmental damage as well. However, I think, in the future some we will need some small number of vehicles using such fuels but for the majority of us, we need some other solution.

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Old 04-06-2007, 09:07 AM
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Cerberus Cerberus is offline
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What sort of biofuels are we talking about here? Some might be sustainable and ethical, and others are definitely not. Reduction of consumption is the ultimate issue I think.
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Old 04-06-2007, 04:47 PM
Corey Corey is offline
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thing that we have to remember about all forms of bio fuels biomass fuels is its organic in some way or form. IT contains VITAL NUTRIENTS NEEDED TO KEEP PLANT CYCLE OF LIFE GOING.
Ecosystem has developed the perfect recycling program in regards to not letting things go to waste or that includes dead plants they all have a purpose from seed to decaying matter every last iota does not go to waste.

By using bio fuels and biomass fuels we disrupt the natural "PERFECT BALANCE" our ecosystem has established. WE ARE BREAKING THAT PERFECT BALANCE AND CIRCLE by BURNING BIO FUELS. Every day that we burn bio fuels is another day Accelerating closer to extinction. Once the nutrients are BURNED the nutrients are gone for good. It cannot be replaced for the energy is in another form which will not return. Example of this is look at the Australia interior its desert unable to grow food or a forest. Why? there use to be a civilization that burned the forest off to create farm land and to provide area for there farm animals. Only problem is they upset the Perfect ecosystem and they died off as a result extinct, Along with most of the big animals that were part of the perfect ecosystem EXTINCT..

Why in the name of your almighty would you want to contribute to the harm and destruction of the world around you directly or indirectly? By using bio fuels period you are further degrading the perfect ecosystem.

Only true solution is to consume less. Period. I am personally almost to reducing 90% of my own footprint of my own base line(which was less than national average). I am healthier now than I was in January. Less stress too for I don't have to figure out if I am going to have fuel or not to power a vehicle I do not own.

Byproduct out of our bodies needs to be used to replace nutrients in the soil to help restore the "perfect balance". First we need to get the toxins out of our foods so that our byproduct is not so contaminated.

Humans as a whole Is the only animal on the planet who destroys the perfect balance thus that maybe why we have a brain. Being at the top is great power thus COMES GREAT RESPONSABILITY. Which we suck at. We were given our brains to be the care takers to be sure the balance was kept. So lets do that and we need to plan long term and set our goals accordingly.

long term goal prevent man made extinction. Any actions that accelerates us towards extinction needs to stop any plans to keep an illusion of reality going needs to stop. Bio fuels/Biomass fuels keep the illusion of comfort going at the expense of accelerating extinction. This is completely irresponsible, Immoral, Unethical.

Only true answer is simplify and consume less.. (hey I am a tech junkie or I was )

Next question need to ask yourself is hwy do you want bio fuels deep down??

1. My guess is you are terrified to give up your creature comforts.
2. Terrified of change.
3. Thinking, you will be less happy without what you have now.
4. If you have a big EGO you maybe thinking people like me are saying this
stuff to bring people like you down in the gutter with us and where do we
get off telling you what to do and how to do it.
5. thinking worlds going to end anyway, will live in luxury and gluten to the
end.
6. nobody else is changing why should I?
7. I was told bio fuels were safe. (LIE bio fuels are 10 times more pollutant
than
diesel when figuring in total cost.)
8. Carbon offsetting works will continue to burn energy. (LIE new study out
saying planting new trees does very little in terms of absorbing co2 and
storing it. Plants will only absorb for about 3 years then they mainly just
exchange co2 for oxygen. Other limiting factors in limited ground
nutrients to get plant to continue growing.) {trees and plants need
planting anyway to offset for what we use in-terms of sprawl and timber
use for building homes and such.} (carbon offsetting is termed GREEN
WASHING its nothing more than to wash away your guilty conscience of
what you know deep down to be wrong.)
9. list goes on.......



Here is another reason Why you should be worried is we are consuming at an accelerating rate to become green and in the process we are accelerating the whole global warming. To produce green energy and products for we are trying to replace all the energy inefficient things that currently work. This is a change of only replacing when broken so energy is being consumed at a greater rate(more co2+equivalent), speeding every thing bad that is happening. The faster the change takes place the LESS THE ECOSYSTEM CAN ADAPT (that includes us). This is one thing where our high technology is killing us.
So the only way to slow this down is to simplify and consume less across the board. We also need to stop thinking in terms that just because we can means we should do it.
There are things happening that are happening 50+ years ahead of schedule, like ice shelf melting away and such. Accelerating pollinator die off, Accelerating rate of extinction as we see our ecosystem fall apart for its perfect balance has been cut off by our stupidity and arrogance in regards to changing our world to suit on desires. Yes I do blame myself for this along with the rest of the human race. So now I am believing in myself and my ability to see how thing fit together and try to stear other people away from catastrophe.... No I am not perfect either, for when I had less info, I was using info provided by big business on how replacing energy inefficient items with efficient items, that we could solve all our problems. Wrong, for the current generation of energy efficient items only get an 10-18% improvement ouch the improvements need to be in excess of 60-80+% increase in efficiency to justify making new infrastructure to make these new items.

Bio fuels is prime example of the low energy efficiency improvements. We only gain 3-4 percent improvement and we are building infrastructure for this THIS IS WASTE AND UNSUSTAINABLE! BUILDING NEW INFRASTRUCTURE IS EXTREMLY RESOURSE DEPLETING. SO we need to have long term plans in place that will minimize new infrastructure to when efficiency which includes the total cost is weighed in is a huge increase in efficiency This is the only way to cut co2+equivalents in the long run in regards to new tech.
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Old 06-06-2007, 04:06 AM
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Cerberus Cerberus is offline
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Corey, first, I totally "get" where you are coming from. But can I ask, what about stuff like methane? That is a biofuel, isn't it? The reason I ask, is that some time ago, I saw a TV show (stop groaning!!! lol) about a town in Switzerland (I think) that was creating biofuel from excrement (animal, in this case, but I can't see why it couldn't be human) and was running their public transposrt system on it. The result was a reduction in pollution (diesel fumes) and a way of utilising what was otherwise a problem to get rid of. I don't know the full story, and I am no environmental scientist, but how might this type of set-up work on a global scale? (Using human poo! as animal farming is not sustainable long term)
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Old 06-06-2007, 04:54 PM
Corey Corey is offline
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First in order to create sustainability we need to stop putting humans first. Earth needs to be first ESPECIALLY RIGHT NOW. As long as we continue to think as humans first we don't have a fat chance in hell to stop human caused extinction to the whole planet. So every step we take needs to be for Earth first(includes plant, animals, insects, water, diversity), Then humans.

Animal poo is fertilizer nutrients vital for the ground where we actively harvest plants. If we use it as fuels we will be forced to continue using "Nitrates" Which are far more harmful for the environment overall than animal derived methane. there really is no comparison between some methane by live stock against the whole ecosystem. Yes I do realize that methane is 20 times worse than co2 and that no known life on earth can breath almost pure methane.

If we want methane we should figure out how to trap the natural methane coming from the ground in Siberia/arctic regions (which is in the permafrost) this is a greater amount than live stock can put out ~490 gigatons of the stuff is the guestamate by scientists which is starting to be released as earth warms up. which triggers a warming feedback loop till we are breathing all methane :choke: :choke:
Wonder if there would be a way to trap the methane from the natural resource.

In those countries that are using animal derived methane is using a feedlot which is unhealthy period these animals need to be worked back into the small farm and spread out.

Maybe a compromise could be found where the animal poo is put into a pit with a locked dome which collects the methane off the top until the poo is in large enough quantity to move to be used as fertilizer. Although doing it this way there won't be as much methane gas collected for fuel but we would be able to get some while still putting earth first.
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:13 AM
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Corey, I'm not sure about where the cow poo came from, I hope it wasn't feedlots, but maybe milking sheds... anyway, I don't agree with factory farming in the slightest. The setup I saw was all enclosed, methane was extracted while the manure was "hot", and as it became less volatile, the solids were removed and re-used as fertiliser. All in all, not a bad system I thought. The one issue I have with it, is, if we start relying on animals to produce fuel, we are doomed as a morally corrupt species... so since there are 6+ billion people on this earth, who all "ablute" mostly into provided recepticles, why wouldn't we just take the easy path and use human matter, extract methane, recycle the solids?

As for the methane in permafrost... that is really scary... the more I find out about environmental issues, the more I think we are doomed anyway. Things need to change fast to have even half a hope, and it won't happen. Sorry, don't mean to be a killjoy.
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Old 07-06-2007, 10:49 PM
Corey Corey is offline
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now you know why I been having nightmares every night. This is also why I been telling people its our consumption we need to cut not just emissions by doing both at the same time then we make a faster change.

I am struggling with the issue of weather I should focus on trying to enjoy whats left or be miserable and continue fighting the juggernaut of society.

Who is educating these developing worlds about population control?? and explaining that large families are no longer acceptable for the sake of the planet?
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Old 15-06-2007, 10:09 AM
matthewtrigg matthewtrigg is offline
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Bio-fuels should be developed as a short-term alternative to our existing fossil-fuel based economies.

They should not been seen as a solution by any means.
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Old 15-06-2007, 03:43 PM
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I think Bio-fuels really need to be classified into groups, those used in their natural chemical form and those used as feedstock for manufactured fuel. Both these can be subdivided into primary crops and into byproducts of some other process. Those in their natural form might be wood for heating, as a byproduct one could consider wood pellets as a byproduct of various timber industries or corn husks etc, etc. Obviously either of these can also be obtained from primary crops, FSC of course. Methane harvesting from animal manure is also byproduct. For me the issues really arise when one consider crops used as feedstock, for instance algae farmed as feedstock for methane production, oil seeds for bio-ethanol etc etc.

Of all the 2+2, intensively farmed crops used as feedstock for manufactured bio-fuels just make no sense, particularly when used for private transport fuels.

Corey, chill out, do both I don't see that panicking or getting depressed is going to help. I don't think that the future (particularly for those of us lucky enough to live in well developed countries) need be that scary. At the moment it seems to me that there are a very few people going to vast sustainable measures, and the vast majority going to very few sustainable measures, when what is required is everyone undertaking more yet sensible sustainable measures.
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